First of all I know that there are forums similar to this and I have read most of them; however, I still would like some personal advice tailor-made so I can get a better understanding. So I am a prospective student at each of these schools and have received early writes from all of them, except Yale which I hope to get accepted to. I am a History major and have an interest, possibly as a double major, in film and media studies. I would also like to get into politics in the future and my dream is Yale Law School.
In terms of my academic fit, I believe that I would perform better in the close-knit community of liberal arts institutions such as Amherst because coming from a low income background I would appreciate the extra support that I never had. However, the grade inflation at the Ivies might be able to counter this; Yale has a 3.51 average GPA! I truly enjoy history and I know that WIlliams has one of the best Art History departments in the world. I personally think that I would enjoy the academics at Williams the best.
Amherst has a fantastic film program with Mt. Holyoke where one can actually intern and make films. As for the area, none of these schools have a location that can compete with New York City. I don’t think I would dislike the rural area of Williams, but I come from a large urban area so I would feel at home in New York. As for Columbia, since it is located in New York City, I would love to intern for Hillary Clinton if she were to run for President in 2016 and since her campaign would be located there that would be a fantastic opportunity. New York also has a great film scene (Spike Lee or Martin Scorsese might be right around the corner).
Since I would like to go to Yale Law School, I wonder if attending its undergraduate institution would give me a small bump. Yale also has a study abroad program with the University of Tokyo that only one other school, Princeton, has and it has been one of my aspirations to live there for a while. When I look at the statistics on Parchment, I see that students select Ivies in general about 80% of the time in comparison to selecting top LAC’s such as Williams or Amherst. Am I missing something? I don’t really care much for the prestige when speaking to the average layman, even if my family would rather me attend UCLA for those reasons but that is another story. However, I am concerned that perhaps attending Williams or Amherst might hamper the possibilities of me getting into politics. Is this true? I don’t think it is but that is the impression I get. I understand that attending these strong LAC’s wouldn’t reduce my chances of attending graduate or professional school but is the alumni network strong enough to be able to bolster me into politics? I would really like to become a member of Congress in the future. I am very disappointed by the fact that Williams and Amherst have their visit days on the same days so I have to choose which school to visit. This is a very hard decision to make! Anyways, I read forums on this website a lot because students at my school never go any higher than UCLA so I appreciate the insight it has given me. Thank you for reading this, if you did. All advice is welcomed!
The current junior senator form Connecticut, Chris Murphy, is class of '96, and he only went to UConn Law School.
When it comes to setting, Williams is the best, if you are interested in–or possibly could become interested in–outdoor life.
The 80 percent yield of Ivies versus Williams or Amherst is confounded by the fact that close to half of the lacs’ classes are selected early decision. In other words, half the class has already selected the lac over the Ivy.
Congratulations on some fine acceptances. Is the money about equal?
I hope you will be able to visit all four (assuming Yale is a yes) before you make a decision as the environments are quite different. You’ve got big cities Manhattan and New Haven, small town Amherst and even smaller mountain village Williamstown. My guess is that when you’re on campus one will “speak” to you more than the others.
Williams is the most insular and self contained, with the most active, outdoorsy culture, which can either be a plus or a minus. That’s why it’s important to visit and see how you feel about the environment. My son, who had only ever lived in mega cities, was drawn to the profound natural beauty of the Berkshires. He managed to get to New York or Boston once or twice a semester, but was always happy to return to the Purple Bubble. It’s a highly subjective reaction. I wouldn’t say that being in New York City is better; just different.
The academics at all four will be top notch, but the style of teaching is varies. Williams and Amherst will be similar with small classes and accessible, nurturing professors whose sole purpose is to teach undergraduates and who will continue to write personal recommendations for jobs and graduate school for years to come.
Williams has tutorials and Winter Study; Amherst has the consortium. Yale and Columbia will be similar to each other, but Columbia has a core curriculum.
Each has a long list of approved study abroad programs, including several in Japan. You are not limited to programs administered by the school itself, but you might be interested in Williams’ program at Oxford.
All will have active Democratic campaigns, no matter who the candidate is. You will find ample political activism and summer internship opportunities to get you started on your path in politics.
Williams has excellent law school advising and admissions track record. I wouldn’t say it’s a destination for film or communications except in a general sense. Art History and History are both strong departments as is political science.
A few different responses:
- I would not base your decision on perceived likelihood of getting into Yale Law. First, Yale, and all other top law schools, are acutely aware of relative grade inflation at each school, and will discount inflated grades accordingly. In all events, the odds of getting into Yale Law are extremely low from anywhere, and it is, honestly, not a great idea to set yourself up for failure by focusing so narrowly on just one law school among many others that provide an equivalent education and equivalent opportunities (I saw this as an alum of one of Yale's competitors who has had exactly the career path he wanted and has peers from a wide variety of law schools, Yale included, without any perceivable difference among them). Plus, you are going to need over 170 LSAT and over a 3.7 gpa from anywhere, at a bare mininum, to be competitive for YLS, and neither of those is a guarantee for ANYONE four years ahead of the fact. If you go to any of these four schools, do reasonably well on the LSAT, and get above average grades, you will have a great shot at getting into multiple top-10 law schools, and the differences among the top ten are not significant enough to worth caring about at this stage of the game. Williams I know sends kids to YLS every year so it's certainly possible, but of course, you need to have stellar grades (including if you graduate from Yale).
- Going into politics is more about who you are as a person than your alma mater -- tons of members of Congress are from totally anonymous schools. That being said, Williams certainly has a large number of prominent alums who are currently or have thrived in politics, including current Senator Murphy (as noted above), recent Senator Mark Udall, Mass AG Martha Coakley, former mayors of Boston, Seattle and other major cities, and a slew of former Governors, Congressmen, etc. (and of course one former US President). Just look at the Wikipedia page on Williams alumni. Same goes for any of these schools -- none are an impediment to success in politics, but none are remotely a guarantee of success, either.
- Most people choose HYPS (not other ivies, where it's more even) over W/A because most people, especially high achievers in high school, are overly concerned with prestige among their peers, parents, and so on. I promise you, however, that in terms of getting into top grad schools or for any career path you could choose, it won't matter which school you choose among their group -- your peers will be equally smart and talented, the alumni are equally accomplished, and the degree is equally well-regarded, and I'd say the education you get at W/A is better. But it's true, coming from the west coast outside of a small cader of private or elite public schools, no one will have heard of Williams or Amherst, in terms of the average person on the street. The fact that student who that would bother instead choose to go to an Ivy league school to me is actually a big advantage in terms of the composition of the student body at liberal arts schools-- they are there because of a genuine passion for learning, rather than just to get a name on a piece of paper (at least to a relative degree, there are always plenty of paper-stamp types at any school, of course)!
- In short, go where you'd be happiest, as you'll make the most of your experience if you are focused on maximizing the current undergrad experience rather than always looking ahead to what's next. There is simply no wrong choice for your future among schools like these.
FWIW, I played rugby at Williams with Chris Murphy. He was a great guy who gave no impression that he was “grooming himself” for a political life. In fact, the one guy I knew at Williams who obviously (and admittedly) was “grooming himself” for politics wound up in the clergy!
As you said before, these kinds of threads are numerous, and so a lot of the more general comparisons - prestige, job opportunities, grad school acceptances, etc. - have been made time and time again. I will aim to steer clear of them, as we all know that people who matter (especially in grad school admissions) will understand how the academics at LACs compare to the academics at any Ivy.
In terms of fairness, I feel that I’m obligated to say that I’m a current freshman at Williams and I absolutely love it. I come from a CT suburb and am very familiar with both the city and rural life, and I consciously chose Williams’ rural environment BECAUSE of how comfortable I am in a city. College, in my opinion, is a time to grow and experience things you will not be able to experience at any other point in your life. This includes living in a rural environment for four years and being able to take advantage of all that the outdoors can offer. For most people (and especially you, since you have an interest in politics), we will spend much of our adult lives living in a city and experiencing the countryside only through vacations and the like. At no other point in my life before retirement, at least, do I see myself having the opportunity to live in a rural location as my primary home. For this reason, I chose LACs over Ivies, although it may not be as important a factor to you as it was to me.
The reasons for the 80% choosing rate of Ivies over LACs was well explained above, but I have one more point to add to it. LACs are “fit” schools - not everyone likes having such a small environment. If size is a factor for you, as it is for a lot of people, consider carefully which size you want. I’m sure you understand the personal pros and cons of each. Many people go to college looking to significantly increase the size of their school, and so pass over LACs in favor of larger schools. Plus, some people like having people gawk when they drop the H-bomb or the like. To each their own.
The difference between the ivies and the LACs you’ve listed is easy to see, and that’s all about personal preference. Definitely visit each school, of course, and see how you feel there. The differences between the two categories are macroscopic, so deciding which TYPE of school you like better should be easy. Less so between Williams and Amherst, which have many similar features. I found that when I visited the schools, the students made the difference. Be sure to listen in to conversations and ask random students questions. Everyone loves showing off, and the two schools are very prestigious so there’s plenty of showing off to go around. Hearing people talk about their school off the cuff is very helpful, but don’t just ask one student and be done with it; make sure you talk to at least 3 or 4. That’s what helped me decide between two schools that are so similar on paper.
Finally, don’t worry about choosing between the two visiting days! People miss those events all the time (I should know, I did) and colleges are very helpful in finding a time for you to visit again. Ask to stay with a student overnight, take a tour - which should be significantly smaller than it would have been over the visiting period, and that’s a very good thing - and decide how the college feels without all the bustle and fanfare of the visiting period. In fact, that may be preferable in both cases. I highly recommend it.
As a supplement to the excellent opinions you have received here, read through, “Harvard College, or an LAC?” in the Harvard forum. The colleges are different, but the theme is similar. The difference in your case is that your preference regarding location seems more obvious. LACs do offer a style of education that large universities may not be able to match; a great factor if you are drawn to their locations as well – and many are. But as you implied in your personal considerations, New York City is New York City, and a Columbia education is a fine one. My only real suggestion is that you don’t depart too far from your instincts. The other, peripheral factors you mentioned will average out.