Williams vs Berkeley for either premed or CS/tech?

To put this situation into context, my dad is a doctor, and my mom was a software engineer. I spent my entire childhood basically thinking I would be a doctor, but I’m currently taking AP CS and it’s making me kind of question what I want to do, especially because of all of the perks of working in tech. I actually have some shadowing experience, as I did a hospital volunteer program, and was actually able to shadow my dad while he was on call. Most of the program was working with the nurses, and to be honest, I didn’t enjoy it at all. I quit before completing it. However, shadowing a physician was a bit more interesting, but my dad told me to think that lol. After doing that program, I thought the medical field wasn’t for me, but my dad thinks I should give it a second chance. My mom on the other hand, has been super hands off in terms of my “career”. She was also a software engineer over a decade ago, and the industry has changed completely since then. Also, everyone thinks I’m going to become a doctor and seems surprised or even disappointed when I tell them I’m not completely sure about it. I honestly have no idea if that’s what I want to do, but I feel like if I didn’t do premed, I’d be disappointing myself and everyone around me.

Although I really like Cal, my dad, who is paying my tuition, thinks that it’s a big public university and would be a waste of money to attend. Williams has an abundance of resources for students and I would have access to sO mAnY mOrE oPpOrTuNiTiEs. He definitely has a point. The pros of Williams for me are winter study, the Oxford study abroad program (I think it’s hard to get into but I have no idea), the research opportunities, and the tutorial classes. I also do like nature and can see the benefit of having a tight knit community. If I went to Cal, I’d be paying almost the same amount for a lost less. I feel like the mature decision would be to go to Williams. My friends (who are all from the west coast and don’t know or care about Williams) are like Cal all the way, but the few people who know about Williams think giving it up would be stupid.

You can always go from a tech career to med school. There are plenty of students like this each year in med school admissions.

But going from practicing MD to a tech career is pretty much unheard of. There are some fields within medicine that apply technology (Medical Informatics, Genetic Bioinformatics) they are not a typical path.

I can’t help you pick, but it sounds like you need some time to make this decision. Just go to whatever school you feel more comfortable at. You can always decide later.

I’ve maybe missed it if you’ve said this: Have you been able to visit Williams (or Berkeley, but I’m guessing you’ve visited there if you’re on the west coast)?

Is there any way you could visit Williams (or both) over your upcoming spring break? I imagine walking around and talking to students / professors would help you more easily see yourself at one of the two schools, regardless of which academic path you pursue.

2 Likes

In other words, Williams has the resources to offer classes that only 2-4 students are interested in, rather than cancelling them because they need to redeploy the instructors to classes with greater student demand. (This may not be the case for some other LACs.)

The thing is I feel like I can’t decide later. Premed at Berkeley is nearly impossible, and going there as a premed would basically set me up for failure. At Williams I’d have a MUCH higher chance at getting in, and the weed out classes wouldn’t be as bad.

1 Like

This represents an interpretation. An alternative interpretation would be that Williams regards tutorials as integral to the intellectual maturation of its students, and would strive to offer them even under a relatively resource-challenged scenario.

1 Like

I haven’t visited either, but I am going to both schools for their admitted student weekends. I have, however, visited San Francisco and multiple LACS in the Northeast. San Francisco was fine I guess, but I didn’t like the isolation of the LACs. But I know it’s different when you’re a student there and busy with school and different activities, and I know I’d have all of my college friends there too.

2 Likes

Except that they are not required, at least for CS majors. Indeed, there appear to be no tutorials in CS in the current semester schedule at https://registrar.williams.edu/course-information/class-hours/ , which may not be too surprising, given the popularity of studying CS these days (i.e. CS courses that may have had only 2-4 students a decade ago now have many more students).

I got to 10’6 in like five months during the pre-season and then I started working with a different coach who predicted I’d vault 12’ during my high school season. I unfortunately tore my ACL the night before my first track meet at my last gymnastics meet of the season. I initially started vaulting to get into college because it’s super niche and pretty easy to get recruited, but I kind of accepted that I wouldn’t be able to vault again, so I haven’t been super serious with my rehab and don’t know if I’d be able to safely vault in college this fall. Vaulting in college would be fun, but it’s not going to be a deciding factor. I might actually prefer not to.

I honestly like most of my classes and haven’t felt particularly drawn to one subject in particular. For me, it mostly depends on the teacher and people in my classes. However, I do know that I don’t like physics, history, and reading Shakespeare. I guess if I had to tell you which classes I’ve enjoyed, I liked environmental science because the subject matter felt super relevant and computer science because my teacher was super dedicated and genuinely cared about the class (probably a sign to go to a small college lol). Sometimes math is fun when I know what I’m doing, but I just haven’t been paying attention at all so I’m lost right now.

My main extracurricular activity was club gymnastics, which I quit in order to focus on getting into college. I had done it for basically my whole life and have made super close friends through it. I also enjoyed pole vaulting a lot because I was really good before I got injured and had to quit. I wrote a neuroscience research paper mainly for my college application, and I don’t know if I actually enjoyed that. It was basically just reading scientific articles and finding past research to support my hypothesis. I also did a hospital volunteer program which I found extremely boring, and I eventually quit. I know I’m not the only one, but literally everything I did in high school was to get into college, and I kind of picked a premed focus because that’s what I knew.

I also did this two-week coding camp called Kode with Klossy like two years ago at the beginning of the pandemic, so it was entirely virtual. I had no prior experience with coding and didn’t reach out for help, so I was very confused and decided that computer science wasn’t for me. Fast forward to senior year, I decided to take AP CS, and I don’t mind it at all. Through taking the class, I’ve learned about other jobs in the tech which kind of made me question if I want to actually become a doctor. I thought I wanted to be a UX designer for a little bit because when I was making my app during the camp, I distinctly remember enjoying designing the layout, colors, and flow of the app. But I feel like doing that would be a let down, and I don’t even know what the job entails.

I think that the people I’m doing things with is the main factor in determining how much I enjoy something, not necessarily what I’m doing.

1 Like

Two questions come to mind when reading through this thread:

First of all, do you have other options as well? Williams and Berkeley are quite different, but are also both quite difficult to get accepted to. This makes me wonder if you also applied to other schools that might be reasonable choices. There are a lot of universities that are good for premed, and a lot of universities that can lead to a good career in computer science

Secondly, how good are you at math? I was a math major, and my first couple of jobs were as a software engineer. I see the connection between the two (at least for the jobs that I had) and how much you like math and how good you are at it might give us some hint regarding how well you might or might not like being a software engineer.

I have UW Foster (business school), Haverford, UCSD, I’m waiting on Barnard and would consider going there if admitted, and I’ll be hearing from Tufts today too.

I would say I’m decent at math. I’ve never not gotten an A in math, but I also only got a 30 on the math section of the ACT. I’m currently in AP Calc AB because my middle school didn’t offer geometry, and it’s fine. I feel like if I put more effort into it, I’d be able to do very well. Like I’ve never labeled myself as a math person, but I’m not totally incompetent in math.

I’m going to repeat some things, for sure, but hopefully I can cast a little bit of additional light here, or at least augment/amplify others’ thoughts:

Williams – Apple

  • Top-shelf private college
  • Beautiful, bucolic campus in rural New England
  • Tiny class sizes all four years, including the opportunity to take tutorials – one or two students meeting with a professor
  • Great access to professors
  • All classes taught by professors with the terminal degree in their field
  • Things to do on campus and good access to outdoor activities, but you must travel to get some urban exposure
  • Almost totally undergraduate focused (there are 50 grad students…)
  • Temperate – cold winters, pleasant/beautiful spring and autumn, warm summers
  • Relatively fewer majors and courses from which to choose, if you change your mind; however, probably fairly easy to change
  • D3 sports, but plenty of participation and “fan” atmosphere
  • $4.17B endowment, or $1.92M per student

Similar to: Amherst, Middlebury, Bowdoin, Swarthmore


Cal-Berkeley – Orange

  • Top-shelf public university
  • Suburban SF campus – more concrete, less vegetation
  • Large classes in all survey courses, tapering down to smaller classes, typically, as students advance in their majors. In CS, however, even upper-level classes may have hundreds of students.
  • More difficult to get access to profs
  • Some classes – probably mainly labs and discussion sections, as opposed to main lectures – are taught by graduate students.
  • Plenty to do on campus/burbs/Bay Area megalopolis. Must do a little traveling to enjoy outdoor adventures.
  • About 71% undergrad focus (31814 undergrads, 13243 grads). Though I’m not sure how much money is spent on the undergrads vs. the grads…
  • California climate – never snows, never gets too-too hot, typically not terribly humid
  • Relatively more majors and courses from which to choose. However, changing majors in some cases is quite difficult.
  • D1 sports – plenty of rah-rah school spirit. Harder to participate at the varsity level, but there will be opportunities at the intramural level.
  • $4.8B endowment, or about $106,532 per student

Similar to: UCLA, U of Michigan, U of Wisconsin, U of Texas, U of Illinois, U of Washington

5 Likes

I also have Boston College and was waitlisted at Northwestern and WashU (can’t count on the waitlists though).

My current self wants the “rah rah school spirit” , but I don’t know if my 30-year old self would care if my career flopped.

1 Like

Here’s what I recommend. When you’re looking at a ridiculously employable degree like CS or IT, the mature decision is always best. There’s a lot of misconceptions about “average starting salary.” Let me tell you about the economics on how that works. Starting salaries are based on local markets. If you’re starting out with zero experience, you get an entry level salary based on the local market, no more no less. If the employer goes any higher on the pay, they wouldn’t need an entry level employee. They could hire an experienced professional.

In other words, glamor and “big bucks” out of college is really a myth. To be honest, there’s no benefit to spending that kind of money for Cal. Whether it’s Nashville or Silicon Valley, you’re getting an entry level salary just the same. In fact, a place like Nashville can afford a superior quality of life than anything California could provide. After about 3 years experience, employers won’t care where you went to school. I went to a regional state university and I’ve already interviewed for Amazon and Google, as well as several fortune 500 companies. They’re mostly overrated. My advice, go with Williams.

And don’t worry about “flopped careers.” I started out as a banker. I was never happier to let that career flop like a fish. I went back to school and got my masters in IT and I’ve been happy ever since. As long as you’re not saddled with unreasonable debt, there’s always room for career changes. The professional world is quite forgiving.

1 Like

“Part of college and even internships is about finding out what you don’t want, as much as finding out what you do want.”
Agree with this and I might emphasize that it is much easier to explore a wide variety of options in the small liberal arts environment.

2 Likes

These two schools are SO different that visiting is key. I went to Williams a long time ago. I visited on an ugly, rainy New England day, but at the end of the day-trip visit I knew it was the right place for me and I applied ED. It is beautiful and idyllic, nestled in the Purple Mountains; it is also located in a very small, somewhat isolated town, so it feels a little like four years at summer camp with 2000 (generally) happy campers. You might love that or you might hate that, but I’m glad you’ll get to step onto the campus before you decide.
On the sporty aspect of it, you are correct. At 4pm every weekdday after classes, a large proportion of the student body trots off to the gym or the playing fields for practice, whether that is varsity, JV or club sports.

2 Likes

It’s mainly a “fit” thing –

  • Academic: Do you prefer the anonymity of hundreds of students in your classes, or smaller classes? Does Williams offer enough CS courses if that is the route you decide to follow? Will you be wanting to do research?

Both probably are equally suitable for med school admission, though do compare average GPAs in the majors you are interested in. GPA is important in med school admission. (CS, Biology, Chem, whatever)

  • Sports culture and ability to participate (and at what level?)

  • Weather, environment, size of campus, etc.

  • Social atmosphere/things to do

  • Another thing is housing. Others can chime in, but you will probably spend a lot of time “at home” on campus, and quality and ease matter to some students. Williams likely has an edge here – housing and food – but I would definitely do some research if this is important to you.

2 Likes