Williams vs Chicago vs Georgetown vs Cornell (and Duke)

Colleges and Universities A-Z Williams College
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<h2>Ignore the post history, using a friend's account.</h2>

<p>Obviously very different schools. I'm going to post this to each forum and see what I get. Econ major at all schools. Money is roughly the same at all schools, though Chicago has offered me 5k more a year than the second lowest school. Georgetown costs the most out of pocket. I'm also considering Duke, but Cornell and Duke seem to be practically equivalent to me so I'll figure out which one to knock out.</p>

<p>Williams:
Pros: tutorials, quintessential college experience, appropriate balance of smart and sporty, arguably the most integratedly diverse school on my list, I can only go here for undergrad (I want to go to law school), not exactly a "research university"
Cons: tutorials, super small, in the middle of nowhere, binge-drinking culture, read an article about faculty not being supportive of athletic types (it's possible that I could walk on)</p>

<p>Georgetown:
Pros: in DC, closest school to home, great for political connections, best school for big sports on my list, seems the most "fun"
Cons: weakest academic school on my list -- lowest ranked and seems to have a heavy professional tilt, least amount of aid (not by much), too similar demographically to my high school (wealthy and white), least "typical" college campus, feels like a place where people of slightly above intelligence who want to run Wall Street go to school, seems pretty average if I decide to not go political or corporate</p>

<p>Chicago
Pros: in a major city, renowned for econ program, environment of really smart people, fairly diverse, arguably the most prestigious school on my list, best financial aid package (not by much), nice law school placement, probably least obnoxious in terms of party scene of all my schools
Cons: life of the mind -- I think I'm less of an intellectual and more practical, very "Ivory Tower" curriculum, econ program seems insanely difficult, (by far) lowest earning potential of all my schools, super far from home (I live in the suburbs of Philly), grade inflation (will it keep me out of top law schools?)</p>

<p>Cornell
Pros: Ivy League, AEM is a really cool both for law school preparation and making tons of cash right out of college doing banking
Cons: I don't think there's anything particularly exceptional about it (hopefully it'll change when I visit). Binge-drinking, overwhelming fraternity/sorority scene (everyone I know who goes to Cornell has gone Greek)</p>

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<p>Based on that, I’d choose Chicago. 5k more a year over 4 years is $20,000 you are saving. That’s a substantial amount of money. People today are in debt with so much money and it makes the most sense economically.
If not Chicago, Cornell solely because of the name and the opportunities you get with employers who see you went to an ivy league school. </p>

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<p>Congratulations on some fine choices. They’re so different in environment and size: My guess is that after visiting (or re-visiting) your decision will be clear.</p>

<p>You might ask Williams – and the others – to match Chicago’s financial package. </p>

<p>I think you may be underestimating Williams’ prowess in job placement in finance, government and economics related fields. Internships and other networking opportunities among alumni/ae is very strong. Track record for admissions to top law schools and other professional graduate programs is also very strong.</p>

<p>Tutorials, as far as I know, are optional. Since they’re both a pro and con for you, it’s hard to understand your concern, but If you don’t like the format you can avoid it. Also missing from your pro list are Williams’ small class size and personalized attention. The opposite belongs on your Cornell con list.</p>

<p>If Williams’ remote and rural environment is a con for you, the same may be true for Cornell, even though Ithaca is a much bigger community. It’s unclear whether you’ve visited Williams. Usually people know right away whether it’s a right place for them. Some like the insular environment, some don’t.</p>

<p>I think the “appropriate balance of smart and sporty” is an important pro in understanding the cultural difference between Williams/Cornell and Georgetown/Chicago. No idea about the rumored lack of faculty support for athletes. This sounds far-fetched to me.</p>

<p>My impression is that Williams reputation for binge drinking is not an accurate reflection on the social life there, but that substance abuse and out of control fraternities are a real issue at Cornell. (Source: my son did his undergrad at Williams, graduate at Cornell. He felt this was an ideal combination.)</p>

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<p>Cornell is a university, not an LAC. With atypical diversity among students and goals, due to the diverse programs of study at its separate colleges. It’s not as appropriately pigeonholed, as far as culture, as a small liberal arts college where people attend precisely to be among like-minded individuals. Most people don’t come to Cornell to be part of a common social milieu. </p>

<p>To give you an (old) example, during the huge campus demonstrations in the late 60s, a bunch of the engineering students launched a counter-protest. Keith Olbermann and Ann Coulter both graduated from Cornell. (This is certainly far from a bragging point, just to illustrate diversity…)</p>

<p>Lots of college students there drink, at least sometimes. Some people drink too much, Some people rarely drink. Some people don’t drink. Each of these groups will be large. My guess is the first group would be by far the largest.
On a weekend night people tend to go out, and go to parties.</p>

<p>One associates the word “fraternity” with “drinking”, not specifically at Cornell but in general. Cornell is no exception though, frats have long had that reputation there, Traditionally they hosted parties to lure freshmen potential future pledges,etc… However a couple of years ago, IIRC, there were a few particularly horrendous incidents, at frat parties and as part of pledging, that caused the university to change some rules. I don’t know what it’s like at frat parties there now, but it’s probably different.</p>

<p>But the fact is, at least 2/3 of students (I forget the exact %, you can check if you want) do not participate in the Greek scene there. Upperclassmen who are not in frats rarely if ever attend frat parties. And the fraternities themselves vary tremendously. My friend’s son just graduated, he was in sort of a “nerd” frat. There is at least one fraternity that advertises explicitly that it is for non-drinkers.</p>

<p>The point being:

  • there is much less of a predominant campus culture there than at the LACs I’m personally familiar with;
  • if you want to “binge drink” you will certainly have company. However you will not be at all uncomfortable if you don’t.</p>

<p>If you are actually offended by the mere presence of people drinking near you, at all, at a party or at a bar or something, that may be more of a challenge. You will have to make an effort to find your group of like-minded individuals. But they will be there. In greater numbers than at most LAcs.</p>

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<p>I recall there being an issue with faculty vs. athlete stereotypes at Amherst last year, but I’ve never read of that at Williams. I’m just wondering if you may have mixed the two schools up? Econ is excellent at Williams and Chicago, it would seem the settings should guide you on which one is better for you. I’m curious why you see tutorials as both a pro and con? </p>

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<p>Concerning the athletes vs faculty problem at Williams, I read a NY Times article about professors viewing the school as becoming too jocular. Granted, the article was posted over ten years ago, but given that faculty tend to spend lengthy times at these kinds of schools, I wouldn’t be surprised if attitudes didn’t change: <a href=“AMHERST-WILLIAMS: The Biggest Little Game in America; Where Winning Breeds Criticism - The New York Times”>http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/09/sports/amherst-williams-biggest-little-game-america-where-winning-breeds-criticism.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>With regard to tutorials: I think they’re cool because they allow students unparalleled access to faculty. I’m concerned with the fact that such small courses will require that I never fall behind, because it’s not like I can hide in a class of 2 people. I guess if I really don’t want to take them, I don’t have to. </p>

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<p>BTW by 'first group would be the largest" I meant the group “drink, at least sometimes”.
Lest that be misinterpreted.</p>

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<p>@dc2013 - I will say is falling behind is a concern, then Williams is probably not the place for you. The work load does get rather high and stays up there; not olly the tutorials are high workloads, just about everything is.</p>

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<p>@awcntdb‌ - not necessarily seriously fall behind, but maybe miss a reading for a single class session. Nevertheless, I realize that if I don’t want to take tutorials, I don’t have to. </p>

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<p>@dc2018 - I get it now. Well, in this case, I should say there is no college student who has not missed a reading or two or three. Williams is a very awesome place overall. I did not go there, so limited bias - I like the smaller schools. Ignore the drinking issue thing, way overblown. </p>

<p>I add that, as for tutorials, you are missing something not taking advantage of going head on with a top professor and a peer. It is an awesome thinking environment. </p>

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<p>The tutorials are amazing. Seriously–I learned more in one than in 1/2 of my other classes combined.</p>

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<p>I’ve heard only positives about tutorials from my daughter and her friends. She hesitated to take them initially but then liked how much it kept her on task. She also had several classes of 3-5 students so it’s not just in tutorials where you can’t hide not having done a reading. </p>

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<p>Just need to chime in here. Kids and spouse have done ALL those schools and none of the others are Actually similar to Williams. And I would strongly argue against stating that any are more prestigious for getting into any graduate school, including law. If the thought of a small rural college is not for you, don’t go. Otherwise the education you will receive there, I would argue is the best—incredible personal attention and amazing facilities and opportunity for learning. Two of my non jock non drinker kids went there and had an amazing experience. Georgetown was very pre-professional but not as academic. Cornell can be rather competitive–some large courses graded on the curve, for example. Chicago certainly wonderful for grad school, but I think certainly not an outdoorsy active place compared to Williams. If law is your thing, Williams will place you possibly best (know this from son who did Williams, then absolutely top law school path).</p>

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<p>@treefarmer1 - given your knowledge of Williams, i’m interested to see what you think of Duke in comparison. I’ve read some boards about Duke and Williams being the same at least in terms of social climate, and I was wondering if you would be inclined to agree with that. </p>

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<p>Duke is the one school of the bunch I know next to nothing about. I would venture to guess the differences might come down to size (of school, classes). One is southern, one northern, one with frats, one without. You really should try and visit! I can say from experience (2 kids), that Williams was terrific for my kids— and 2 kids in two fantastic grad programs from there-- and they were both (only) good but not top students. It was for them a great lively experience. Hard work, great friends, totally non competitive, supportive environment. Two “cons” to consider are the small size/remoteness and cold winters!</p>

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<p>You really can’t go wrong with any of these schools in terms of law school placement, so I would not sweat that. I would (obviously) choose Williams – I went to Williams undergrad, UChicago for law school, so I am most familiar with those two. Cornell I’ve consistently heard is a fairly stressful place, and is also by far the largest of the group. UChicago’s reputation as super-intellectual, quirky, but a bit deficient in the fun/well-rounded-college experience department is a fair one. Glad I went there for grad school, also very glad I didn’t go there as an undergrad. But this all depends on your personality.</p>

<p>A few things I would correct: the vast majority of faculty at Williams have no problem with athletes (if they do, they really shouldn’t be at Williams, since around 40 percent of students participate in varsity athletics). There were some concerns about those issues, as others have noted, over a decade ago, but that also coincided with substantial changes to Williams’ admissions policies, after which the lowest band of athletic admits were eliminated, dramatically reducing the academic disparity between heavily recruited athletes and other students. </p>

<p>I also would not say that UChicago is more prestigious, as an undergrad institution, than Williams. If anything, the opposite is true, in particular if you are pre-law. Williams is as you note relatively small and rural, I viewed those as assets, but if those are deal breakers for you, then Williams may not be the school for you.</p>

<p>Personally, I’d say that Williams is the best fit for how you describe yourself and your interests, followed by Cornell (the students and setting are most similar to Williams, but the schools are just so dramatically different in size), UChicago, and then Georgetown (I really don’t like Georgetown, too many bros, too dominated by folks who want to be on the Hill, and not diverse at all). </p>

<p>I’d echo what others have said and see if Williams will adjust financial aid to come closer to Chicago – they may or may not, but worth a shot. After visiting you’ll probably have an easier decision, because the campus environments are fairly easy to distinguish among those four schools. </p>

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<p>@Ephman what was your Williams major? Did you see that playing any significant role in your uchicago law placement? </p>

<p>I am sure your Williams education formed you as sharp critical thinker, and, you probably had what it would take to get great LSAT and GPA scores already when contemplating spending four years surrounded by the gorgeous blue-purple hued Berkshires. But beyond that what were some of better choices you made during your time at Williams that made you an outstanding candidate for one of the very top law schools?</p>

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<p>Poly Sci / Econ. But major is totally irrelevant, honestly. Any major at Williams (or any similar school) will force you to sharpen your critical thinking skills. I knew folks who were art history, math, engineering, philosophy majors who did very well in law school. It’s more important to choose a subject matter that you love and feel a deep engagement with (and hopefully, will perform well in) than trying to pick a major based on what you feel will provide the best pre-law prep. </p>

<p>Sadly, there is no secret to being a good candidate for law school – it’s almost entirely numbers driven, and you can usually predict fairly well where you will end up based on LSAT, GPA, and undergrad school. I was certainly able to guess exactly where I’d be admitted and where I’d be denied (Yale and Stanford on the latter front) by looking at LSAT and GPA combos of prior Williams applicants (basically, if you are within .2-.3 of the of the GPA of the average enrolled student GPA, and so long as you are at or above the average LSAT level for enrolled students, you will probably be admitted, if your LSAT is on the low side then your GPA from Williams will need to be at or ideally above the average enrolled GPA) . </p>

<p>But to thrive as an attorney, you need to be a good writer and oral advocate, so I’d recommend taking as many tutorials as possible at Williams, as they force you to develop both skills. Any classes that develop analytical thinking in a very deep way, such as high-level math or philosophy, are also a good idea. </p>

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<p>Congratulations on having awesome choices. Some people would love to have your problem.</p>

<p>No one can tell you which to choose; we can only highlight differences we’re aware of. You need to visit your top choices in order to make u your mind. Given the outstanding caliber of all your choices, I don’t think you can choose a “wrong” school. At this point it’s all about that elusive “fit.”</p>