Williams vs Harvard?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Harvard University
1

<p>Hey guys,</p>

<p>Just got the news that I was accepted to Williams College in MA. I know the admissions rate was reasonably competitive this year (17 percent or so) and I was wondering how a Williams education would compare with an undergrad degree from the top ivy schools such as, say Harvard, U Penn, or Princeton, based on these factors:</p>

<p>1) Quality/depth of education
2) Job opportunity/Easiness entering the market/Career opportunities
3) Accessibility to professors
4) Social life/ musical extracurriculars</p>

<p>Anyone have info/thoughts on this? I'd greatly appreciate it.</p>

<p>Hope you guys get accepted to your top choice schools!!</p>

2

<p>A Williams degree is probably just as good as one from an Ivy. It might not have the ‘wow’ factor to the average person as say Harvard, but for employers and grad schools, it should be comparable. </p>

<p>With that said, it’s a very different place than mid-sized unis like the Harvard or Yale. It’s small, and in a relatively isolated area. Yale’s pretty accessible to NYC and Harvard’s a train ride into Boston proper. </p>

<p>In terms of education, it’s probably also comparable to any Ivy. Because there isn’t a substantial graduate school program at most of the LACs, you’ll have most of your lectures and discussion sections led by professors (or at least a larger percentage than at an Ivy) and probably have easier access to professors. With that said, precisely because it does not have a world-class grad program, there are probably fewer superstar professors on staff. Now, superstar academics do not always make for great teachers, nor are they always accessible. But if you want to be in a class lectured by the likes of Steven Pinker or Harold Bloom or what not, you may not find that at Williams. </p>

<p>Williams has a small music department, but it’s quite a vibrant musical scene for the school of its size. (And extremely impressive list of music alum to boot) I actually had a chance to work with a member of the Williams music faculty (he ran the choral program I think) through work a while ago. Absolutely standup guy.</p>

3

<p>Lemme see-- my S is a freshman at H and I have a D who will be entering Williams in the fall. As far as I can tell they are caulk and cheese. Williams is the best UNDERGRADUATE education you can get, but it is small (but intimate) and has no real on the edge research labs (but the professors do do great research and you will have no grad students or post docs to be in between you and the professor. At Williams your professor will know you personally (but you can’t hide) and you will feel to be a member of a strong, very tight community (but it can be claustrophobic). You will not have the “Preparation H syndrome” where people will love (or hate you) based solely on your college, yet Williams has among tightest alumni associations. </p>

<p>Harvard has a more diverse student body-- how can it not it is over 3 time Williams’ size–and the kids can be be very “oblong” rather than well rounded-- but there are oblong kids at Williams and well rounded kids at Harvard.</p>

<p>Music is strong at both–both formally and informally. Art better at Williams, theatre is a wash. </p>

<p>One is very urban and one is very rural.</p>

<p>Both will give you an outstanding education–if you are someone who could basically skill undergraduate and do grad courses you won’t have those at Williams–but then the professor will be VERY interested in you and give you lots of personal attention. Both have great, very smart student bodies – Williams is a bit more jock (50% play varsity/jv) and Harvard more nerdy-- but there are plenty of jocks at Harvard and nerds at Williams.</p>

<p>Career-- both have superb access to both jobs (JP Morgan is called Williams on Wall Street and Goldman is Harvard) and fellowships grad school acceptances. </p>

<p>Go and visit-- trust your gut, not what some check marks on a benefit analysis – if you have the choice between them, you have a plethora of riches and can’t go wrong–if you trust your gut.</p>

4

<p>@etondad: Ha. Nice. We overlapped posts.</p>

<p>@powerfuldog: At one point I actually had to decide between Harvard and Williams myself. I ultimately chose Harvard, and had a great time. But I’m sure I would have enjoyed Williams just as much. My previous boss went to Williams, and he still swears by it.</p>

5

<p>@WindCloudUltra I never even saw Williams until my junior year at Yale and I thought then that had I known about it while in high school I’m not sure where I would have chosen.</p>

<p>I COMPLETELY agree with you about the alumnus-- If I wear a Williams hat I will be stopped more time than not by someone asking"what class?" When I tell the person it is my D who will be entering in the fall, they all say, “lucky kid, she has the four years ahead of her…” </p>

<p>Yet my S is absolutely besotted by Harvard-- doing Math 55 and a grad course in music-- could never have had that at Williams.</p>

<p>To each his own :)</p>

6

<p>WindCloud and Etondad, both of your resumes and life experiences put me to shame…your credentials are outstanding and I appreciate all the advice you’ve given me. I thought that as far as name recognition goes for jobs and career success in finance, a Harvard or Princeton degree was like no other, but education-wise, a LAC like Williams is hard to beat. Can’t wait for March 29th; then, I’ll know if I have ivy options to choose from.</p>

<p>Being that Williams told me that they notified me early because I was among the best in the pool (supposedly), could this be a good omen for ivy results? </p>

<p>thanks!</p>

7

<p>

</p>

<p>You were told that you’re a big fish in Williams’ pond? Oh yeah - that ought to be a very good omen but of course, Ivy admissions can be idiosyncratic.</p>

<p>Etondad - caulk and cheese? What’s that mean?</p>

8

<p>@powerfuldog: Good luck! In any case, even if your worst case scenario (which, given that you and your app managed to impress Williams admissions, is unlikely) is probably a dream come true for lots of other kids! You can’t go wrong with Williams. As etondad mentioned, plenty of Williams alum go into finance. From what I hear through the grapevine, Williams alum go out of their way to help younger grads and can be very protective of them in work environments in a way that Harvard alum are less likely to do because it’s really a much smaller, and tightly knit community. </p>

<p>@etondad: I think the equivalent for Harvard (or Yale) would be house/college sweatshirts. I wouldn’t stop someone in the street if he/she were wearing something with the Harvard insignia, but I might if they were wearing my house (or just a house) sweater. Much less of a chance in embarrassingly stopping someone who didn’t actually go to Harvard but is wearing a Harvard shirt.</p>

9

<p>I got into Williams ‘early’ too. I hope this means something for Harvard and Yale! haha</p>

10

<p>@WCU-- true about college/house shirts, just at least in the days of the dinosaurs, they didn’t much exist (I have a Calhoun tie somewhere…). But your point is taken. Yet I have also been told that there is much more of a mentor role between young and old Williams alums (it was the alumni, after all, that saved the college after the president and most of the faculty moved to establish Amherst a/k/a “The Defectors” :slight_smile: ).</p>

<p>it is an old (once again my age!!!) expression, probably English in origin …it means two things that may look the same but are, in fact, completely different.</p>

11

<p>

</p>

<p>Maybe compared to Harvard, but I believe that there are quite a few Princeton alums that would disagree with this statement.</p>

<p>Otherwise, an excellent summation.</p>

12

<p>I’m just quoting Forbes. US News has it as the top LAC but Forbes which doesn’t make the distinction btwn research universities and LACs has it on top…trust me there is a raging debate H vs. W in our house right now–I take NO sides.</p>

13

<p>^^^^Princeton was #1 in USNWR “Best Undergraduate Teaching” for Research Universities?</p>

<p>How did Williams do for LAC’s in this category?</p>

14

<p>Williams and Harvard are different models for elite college education, but they are both perfectly valid, effective models, and I suspect there are very few students who would clearly be more successful academically at one than at the other. It’s Wedgewood vs. Limoges, Bordeaux Vs. Burgundy. It really doesn’t matter, beyond personal taste.</p>

<p>On the other hand, once you get past the essential educational equivalence, there are pretty significant differences in almost every other aspect of life at the two institutions. Big city vs. little town in the mountains. 21,000 students and a similar number of employees (and practically adjacent to two other universities, plus multiple others within easy public transportation reach) vs. 2,100 (and the nearest other colleges are in different states). No nickname for the sports teams vs. an incomprehensible, made-up one (what’s an “Eph”?). H-bomb vs. something mini often reminds us is easy to confuse with a paint company, or if you are lucky the University of Washington, once you leave the corridors of East Coast Establishment power. And, I sort of hate to say this, but back in the day people drank a LOT more at Williams, and played a lot more sports, formally and informally, and enjoyed themselves more, too. The number, length, and diameter of sticks people had up their butts also differed significantly between the colleges.</p>

<p>Given the fundamental educational equivalence between the two schools, it’s completely OK to decide on some other basis.</p>

<p>(There are a few fields, but only a few, where the educational equivalence argument may not hold. If you want to be an academic mathematician, and you are ready for Math 55, you should probably go to Harvard.)</p>

15

<p>Eph is short for Ephram Williams the founder. I think the drinking at Harvard has caught up with Williams, alas. You’re right about the jock culture–percentage of the student body is much higher at W who play varsity and jv – and it is the unusual student who does not at least work out a lot.</p>

<p>As I wrote earlier, there are some standouts fields–studio art and art history are stronger at W, many of the sciences are stronger at Harvard – W has great faculty but the research and the lab opportunities are greater at H.</p>

<p>Their success rate for grad school and employment are about equal – with H having a small percentage edge in the top fellowships such as Rhodes and Marshall.</p>

<p>It is, as it should, a matter of taste more than anything one can put on paper,</p>

16

<p>As an alum of Williams, with many family members (including a parent) who attended Harvard, I think that most of the comments on this thread are dead-on. Between the two, folks should go where they feel most comfortable in terms of social and physical environment. Most people pick Harvard over Williams because, well, it’s Harvard. I think some of those people, had they had a chance to do it again, would pick differently. For some, of course, Harvard is a much better fit, but I never even considered it (despite my alumni hook) because I and my folks knew a liberal arts school was where I would thrive. </p>

<p>That being said, here are in my view the advantages of each:</p>

<p>Williams:
– all classes taught by full profs, emphasis on undergraduate teaching in tenure process (Harvard, it’s ALL about research, and sometimes you can tell), more smaller, discussion-oriented classes, opportunity to get to know profs really well and work with them intimately, tutorials, basically, the standard liberal-arts-vs-big-research dichotomy, and in my mind, the biggest plus for Williams
– resources all go to undergrads meaning undergrads get first chance for plum research opportunities and summer campus internships.<br>
– Less competition, period, for resources – it’s a lot easier to be editor in chief of the student paper, for example, when you aren’t competing with 50 aspiring Bob Woodwards.<br>
– the tight-knit, non-competitive, collegial environment among students and, later, alumni. I felt like Harvard attracted a lot more type-A people, simply because nowadays, you practically have to be superhuman to gain admittance. Of course, some folks find it exciting to be around the best of [x] [y] and [z] in the country, but I’d rather be around a lot of people who are merely very good at x, y AND z.<br>
– the physical beauty of the setting
– winter study / the academic calendar (while Harvard kids have to worry about exams over xmas break, Williams kids are gearing up for the best part of the year)
– the alumni network. Yes, Harvard’s is far bigger and no one has more impressive alums, but Williams alums will go the distance to help one another to an amazing degree.<br>
– not having the Harvard name. It can be annoying (for most people, anyway) to be treated with the reverential air that only Harvard seems to bestow. Yes, it is also annoying that so few people have ever heard of Williams (and trust me, 95 percent of the American populace has not), but if you are the sort of person who needs random people to be awed by your pedigree, you wouldn’t fit in at Williams anyway.</p>

<p>Harvard:
– the biggest name profs, speakers, campus events, etc., certainly exciting to be around a place that attracts the best of the best. My Dad for example had BF Skinner as a prof. Yes, he didn’t know my Dad’s name, but still pretty damn cool.<br>
– basically limitless resources<br>
– Cambridge and all there is to do there, plus proximity to Boston
– the Harvard name. This is more nuanced than you might think. For my field (law), Williams is just as good – at every job I’ve ever wanted, they’ve been totally impressed by Williams. I think same goes for academia, medicine, wall street, consulting, etc. Where Harvard helps a lot is in fields (other than the art museum and theater world, where everyone knows Williams) that don’t feature a ton of alumni of schools like Harvard and Williams. The Harvard name always put my Dad’s resume near the top, at least that was my sense, in his field, one in which relatively few Ivy etc. grads enter into. But few people outside of traditionally “elite” occupations will have ever heard of Williams.</p>

17

<p>

</p>

<p>Harvard changed their academic calendar three years ago so this is no longer true. Fall term finals are before winter break.</p>

18

<p>Ooops, my bad, cltdad.</p>

19

<p>I think there are more pros to Harvard than Ephman would point out… If his list were all I could think of, I certainly would never have come here! No Williams-bashing: I respect and like Williams. My favorite TF, whom I respect a ton, went there and loved it. It was definitely in my top 5 college choices, and this from somebody who probably would have climbed a wall and stuck to the ceiling forever rather than come down and deal with most other LACs. However, I feel like the faculty support issue and “the standard liberal-arts-vs-big-research dichotomy” is more than a little overstated when applied to Harvard and Williams. They’re both too far at the top of their field for many of the most common differences to be so sharp as they are once you’re down around USNWR rank 50.</p>

<p>The college at the heart of Harvard University is, to be accurate, a very, very good liberal arts college. The amount of money they have to spend on us, although it seems crass, makes a real difference. I’m getting anecdotal evidence of this firsthand, since my best friend is at a liberal arts college ranked in the top 30 nationwide, and I’m getting a more liberal-artsy education than she is. E.g. as a sophomore who declared her double major at the beginning of last semester, she has yet to take a class in either major that wasn’t a survey lecture course. (Of her majors, one’s a social science, which is perhaps fair, but the other is English!) Her college cancels all (or almost all) non-tutorial classes with enrollments under 10. At Harvard, about 1/3 of my classes have had enrollments under 10 (…I like weird subjects.) and about half of my classes have been seminars. If I didn’t tell you where either of us went to school, you’d think she was at the research university and I was at the LAC. So the firm distinction between UGA-type and Bard-type college experiences, for two fantastic schools ranked not that much lower, is rather less distinct when it comes to HYPS vs. AWS. (And somebody from that school in NJ will probably yell at me if I don’t note that they’re probably the best of HYPS on that metric, so duly noted.)</p>

<p>Not that there isn’t significant truth to the distinction between Harvard College being within a research university and Williams as an LAC; it’s just not overwhelming. As far as I can tell, it’s because every department at Williams is a small department, and you get correspondingly high levels of support. Harvard has big departments, some of which don’t do a very good job of making close connections between faculty and students, a la typical research universities. Economics, psychology, and some of the life sciences seem to be the primary culprits. Two caveats: it’s not like there are no advantages to studying psychology here under, say, Pinker, and there are many big departments that do better jobs, like English, history, and computer science. (I know CS’s students like it a lot, although I’m not sure how big it is. Trying to provide a science example.) However, I’m not sure how big a difference you’d see between a given small department at Harvard and at Williams. I’ve had incredible faculty support in my own small department. I’m on let’s-get-coffee-every-so-often terms with one of the world leaders in my (admittedly super obscure) field, and comfortable with most of the others who work here. Last semester of the three courses I took in my major (none of them with my mentor-ish professor), one had ~25 people, one had 11, one had 6. All three professors invited the entire class to dinner with them; one of them did so twice. My anecdotes obviously aren’t conclusive proof, and my full professors are probably rather busier outside of class than they would be at Williams. (I enjoy having graduate students around, for the record, because I like having both expert and the recently-in-my-own-shoes views on material.) But neither is it accurate to depict Harvard as a place where it’s impossible for a student to find a comfortable place to be noticed within the larger university.</p>

20

<p>“If his list were all I could think of, I certainly would never have come here!”</p>

<p>Same here. No mention of extracurriculars? They might be the single best thing about Harvard. Williams does very well for its size, but if you’d like to work on a daily newspaper, take your a cappella group on a 6-continent world tour, run a 24-7-365 homeless shelter, write global travel guides sold in bookstores nationwide, audition for dozens of different plays and musicals every semester, operate the leading model united nations conference in the country, etc. etc…Harvard has those opportunities and Williams does not.</p>