<p>
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Keep in mind that Amherst has the same number of athletic "tips" as Williams, and a significantly smaller student body.
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Amhert beat Williams in football this year. The new Williams Head Football Coach is not as good as the old one. I doubt he will be there in five years.</p>
<p>Interestedad,</p>
<p>I think the college really is making a concerted effort to ensure that athletes fit the profile of the general student body, and the report you pointed to shows that a problem exists,and has been acknowledged. I worked with the committee. You'll just have to take my word for it.</p>
<p>Williams, like most colleges, is a business. The direction that the college chooses to take is largely dictated by the alumni who donate substantial amounts of money to the school. Clearly, many alums (or at least the wealthy ones) do want Williams to have winning teams. If you feel so strongly about the sports situation, you need to donate a lot of money, and stipulate that they will only get the dough if they get rid of "tipping," or you need to organize a vocal group of alums with similar feelings, and substantial wealth. </p>
<p>That study was on the Williams website for some time. It had been taken down awhile ago. I think it is important to point out that Amherst conducted a similar study, but they did not make the results public.</p>
<p>I think you fall into this constant trap of comparing Williams to Swarthmore. While it seems that Swarthmore looks for future academics, Williams looks for future leaders. The argument (which is highlighted in the article to which you referred) is that sports teaches people leadership skills which cannot be learned in the classroom. </p>
<p>Are there jocks at Swarthmore? Of course!! Are there eggheads at Williams? Most certainly!!! Are the egghead jocks at Williams? Yes!!! Last year both of Williams' Rhodes scholars were varsity athletes. (Wrestling and Soccer, not exactly "egghead" sports). Are the academics comparable at the two schools? Yes!!! In fact, presidents and provosts seem to feel that, on average, Williams has stronger academics than Swarthmore. (see U.S. News and World Report ratings)</p>
<p>You also point to the fact that Williams reduces its admissions standards to recruit jocks far more than its peer schools. I really don't know how you can prove this without data from other schools. Perhaps Williams has such fabulous sports teams BECAUSE they have a tradition of winning. The best athletes, who are also excellent students, want to play for schools with winning teams. The NESCAC is a bizarre collection of schools because the academic qualifications of the students vary so substantially. I would venture to say that "jocks" at Williams probabaly have stronger academic qualifications than the "non jocks" at Hamilton and Colby and Trinity and Con College. How do you create a minimum set of academic qualifications across a league with such large differences in "student selectivity?"</p>
<p>P.S. </p>
<p>I believe (if I am remembering correctly) that an academic "1" is a student with SAT scores > 1550, who also ranks at the top of their class. Most of these students are admitted, and most end up going to HYPS.</p>
<p>there are also lots of people who go to williams</p>
<p>Well, I'm not saying those people don't go to Williams. But can Williams (or Swarthmore or Amherst) realistically compete for these type of students? Not really. Most academic superstars will choose to go to Harvard, or Yale, or Princeton or Stanford or MIT.</p>
<p>I really believe that this is one of the reasons that Williams looks for "smart jocks." Because getting academic "1's" to enroll is just so tough.</p>
<p>dreamsicle,I think there are two separate issues here, whites and jocks. </p>
<p>In the class of 2008, 60% of all American students are white, 40% are people of color. About 9% are Asian-American. This figure doesnt include the internationals, many of whom are Asian. These figures compare favorably with other LACs. Okay, maybe youll get a few more or less at different schools, but the general diversity is similar. As an Asian-American you will not feel out of place at Williams. The surrounding area of Williamstown, the Berkshires, Western Massachusetts are, however, fairly white and middleclass. You dont get the cultural diversity that you would in urban centers like New York, Philadelphia or New Haven or at a big public university.</p>
<p>According to Williams Website 34% of Williams students play varsity sports. Even at the most sports-adverse LACs the percentage playing varsity sports must be at least in the mid-20s just because the coed schools have 20+ teams. In colleges of 1500-2000 students this is a lot of kids involved in sports. At big universities even like Ohio State where sports are huge, the percentage of athletes to the total student body would be much smaller. </p>
<p>I think everyone agrees that physical activity is a good thing for teenagers and young adults. The dispute with Williams centers on the fact that they WIN at sports. I.e., sports are good, but playing to win is antithetical to and a distraction from the intellectual mindset. Personally, I think the reason that Williams excels at sports is that excellent athletes who are also very bright kids want to go to Williams because they want to win (as do most athletes). I think that the admissions accommodations made for athletes are minimal and that many, many star athletes are also star scholars. There are several parents on this board whose children are Williams athletes who would not take well to the suggestion that their sons or daughters are academic or intellectual slackers and rightly so.</p>
<p>My son, who is a Williams sophomore, is not a team athlete, but he is active and outdoorsy. Williams kids in general are very active and extroverted. They are do-ers (in addition to being thinkers) and they like to support whatever their classmates are doing so yes, they go to football games, but they also go to plays, art openings, jazz concerts. Since performing a study about the impact of sports on campus several years back, Williams has made an effort to make sure that athletics do not dominate the social scene or culture. Without doubt kids support their teams and their friends but there are many, many options in activities and personalities.</p>
<p>Look, I dont know the whole football team, but I can give you an example of a boy from our highschool who attends Williams. He was a top athlete, played three sports. Also, had all As, perfect SATs, plays an unusual instrument, speaks three languages, isnt much of a drinker and is one heck of a nice guy. This, to me, is the Williams athlete. Kirk Varnedoe the star football player who went on to be a top curator at the Museum of Modern Art is another. These are not isolated cases. </p>
<p>Yes, some Williams kids are jocks. They are also artists, musicians, actors, dancers, ecologists, poets, political activists and most importantly all around smart kids. I guess if you hate competitive sports and the thought of attending a game (or climbing a mountain or going to the gym) sounds like slow torture, then Williams isnt the place for you. On the other hand, if youre like my son, a physically active kid many of whose friends are athletes (and artists, musicians, actors, etc) then youll be fine.</p>
<p>thank you for the explanation, momrath. i haven't played in organized sports since middle school, but i am a sports aficionado. i wouldn't mind attending a game at all, though i'm probably not at the level (at any sport, really) to play myself. haha, not unless they have table tennis... i am a musician. (i play clarinet, piano, and percussion, and i sing and compose.) </p>
<p>mikey- so if i have a 1560 and am ranked 10 in a class of 1251, am I considered an "academic 1"? i applied to hyps (was deferred early action), but i really doubt i'll get into any of them.</p>
<p>i guess i'll just wait until april and see which colleges want me. then if williams is on the list, i'll go visit and see for myself. :)</p>
<p>thanks, and happy new year!</p>
<p>"I think that the admissions accommodations made for athletes are minimal "</p>
<p>Unfortunately, Momrath, this is not true, particularly in the case of the football team. I don't mean to disparage the entire team, and agree that there are most likely many talented student-athletes on the team (as there were back in my day at Williams), but the fact is that since the early 1990's, Williams has been admitting a number of athletes with stats significantly below the Williams norm. And, as a result, the team has been winning, quite a bit more than Amherst and Middlebury (other NESCAC schools with similar academic profiles). A player from our local high school is going to Willliams next year and will probably be an impact player there - his academic record is not anywhere close to the usual academic profile of a Williams admit. He is a "tip" in every sense of that word. </p>
<p>I think that for many other teams at Williams (tennis, squash, track & field) most of the kids have the academic record to otherwise be admitted to Williams - in the case of the these teams, Wiliams' record of success feeds on itself.</p>
<p>As a Williams alum, the emphasis on athletics concerns me. I strongly support athletics at Williams - I just think it has become too much a part of the profile of the school. Of course athletes want to win - but something is askew when one school consistently wins everything.</p>
<p>I agree Jrpar! What I want to know is whether other schools in the NESCAC are also substantially reducing their academic standards to get impact athletes. It may be true that the strongest athletes with a certain academic caliber (lets say 1150- 1300 range) want to go to Williams because of the tradition of winning. Perhaps other excellent NESCAC schools are admitting students within this academic caliber at similar rates, but they happen to be weaker athletes?</p>
<p>Just out of curiosity, can you give us a bit more detail about the academic qualifications of this student? How bad were they?</p>
<p>Dreamsicle, I think the average SAT score of academic '"1's" is a 1550. I would venture to say that an academic rating of "1" is very rare, and many "1's" have also won (or successfully competed) in national or international academic competitions. To me you sound more like an academic "2". This is an excellent academic rating, and I would bet that the majority of academic "2's" are accepted.</p>
<p>I'm also not sure that Williams always wins everything. They appear to win about 3/4 of the games in which they compete ( according to the article cited by I-dad). Is this too much?</p>
<p>Football and Hockey are the two teams that get the bulk of the "tips," and I wholeheartedly would like to see the tips on these two teams reduced. We should all get together and write a letter to Williams, letting them know our opinions. It may not help, but it can't hurt.</p>
<p>MikeyD - I don't want to post potentially identifying info about the admitted student - it wouldn't be fair to the student. </p>
<p>ID's post above reporting that Williams won all but two Little 3 Championships last year is pretty stark. I can't believe that Williams always beats out Amherst for the better athletes.</p>
<p>My sense is that the administration is concerned about this issue, and does want to address it.</p>
<p>I don't know if you've ever read "ephblog", but there has been some interesting discussion of this topic there :<a href="http://www.ephblog.com/archives/000755.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.ephblog.com/archives/000755.html</a></p>
<p>Very interesting read!!!!! Thanks so much.</p>
<p>It appears that there was a "dual culture" presence back when Dave was in school in the 80's. So this emphasis on athletics is not necessarily a new thing. </p>
<p>Can you give us a little tidbit about what the student's academic credentials were like. For example, can you give us the SAT score (not the exact score, but a range that contains the score). What about grades?</p>
<p>I don't think you will blow the student's cover.</p>
<p>Where is a 3.5 gpa, 1400 sat scorer on the academic index?</p>
<p>AI calculator
<a href="http://www.collegeconfidential.com/academic_index.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.collegeconfidential.com/academic_index.htm</a>
this is where you can calculate academic_index (just invert the score: 9->1, 8->2).</p>
<p>ECs, and personal traits have big effects too, IMO.</p>
<p>Hi Hope,</p>
<p>No offense, but very very very few students receive "1's". Based on your qualifications, I would peg you at a "2" (Which is stil phenomenal). "1's" are a super rare breed, and scores and rank are only one component of the rating.</p>
<p>oh, I just meant academic index. MY Ec index is prolly around4,5. is the calculatorwrong one? i thought this was what you guys were talking about</p>
<p>1's and 2's are not rare as people think. ACcording to ephblogs.com, Williams get about 1500 of 1's 2's, so its pretty common. However, Academic index is grossly number-driven. It is solely based on Class rank, SAT I, & SAT II. hehe mikey, I have no doubt that in overall ranking, I am below 2. I kinda wonder how i got in, since there are so many talented international kids that apply to WIlliams.</p>
<p>Actually,</p>
<p>I got an e-mail with all of the students accepted via ED. (I do some volunteer work with the admissions office) There were 14 international students accepted ED out of 50 applicants, which is much larger than the figure of "4" from last year. You were counted as a domestic student : ). (Sorry. You gave your name on a previous post. heheheheheh). There were actually a surprisingly large number of students admitted from Texas. Many more than from my home state of Pennsylvania.</p>
<p>I was actually referring to an academic score of "1." They are very very very rare at Williams, and are only partly defined by scores and rank. Usually academic "1's" are westinghouse finalists or have placed in some sort of international academic competition (i.e. chemistry olympiad). The vast majority of admits are "2's or "3's".</p>
<p>ohhhh i get it cool~!</p>
<p>You may have been a "1" though. Now that I re-read what I wrote, it sounds really condescending and obnoxious. Sorry!!!!!!!</p>
<p>Congratulations!</p>