Winter Athletic Excellence & Campus Enthusiasm at the USNWR Top 30 National Universit

College Search & Selection
1

<p>Beyond the great academic strength to be found at all of the colleges that make up the USNWR Top 30 national universities, there is often a major campus impact as a result of the sporting teams that the colleges will field. Campus social life is an important consideration for many students looking for a good college fit and athletic events on a campus can provide a stimulating social outlet (and a sometimes needed boost in the sometimes depressing month of February). </p>

<p>During the winter months, basketball is the dominant game played on college campuses and, in the northern climes, ice hockey can be important. I made a quick study of the level of national achievement and the level of student/alumni/local fan interest (as measured by attendance) for these two sports at the USNWR Top 30 national universities. Here are the results of how well these schools compete on a national Division I level and how popular they are with their fan base of students, alumni, locals, etc. :</p>

<p>NATIONAL EXCELLENCE</p>

<p>National Rankings according to Sagarin (as of February 12, 2008)</p>

<p>Rank , MEN'S DIVISION I BASKETBALL</p>

<p>1 , Duke
4 , U North Carolina
5 , UCLA
7 , Georgetown
8 , Stanford
17 , Notre Dame
28 , USC
37 , Vanderbilt
50 , UC Berkeley
78 , Wake Forest
112 , U Virginia
119 , Cornell
144 , Brown
169 , U Michigan
195 , Northwestern
211 , Yale
222 , Harvard
224 , Columbia
291 , Princeton
298 , Dartmouth
299 , U Penn
307 , Rice</p>

<pre><code> 341 Division I teams are ranked
</code></pre>

<p>RPI (as of February 10, 2008)</p>

<p>Rank , WOMEN'S DIVISION I BASKETBALL</p>

<p>5 , U North Carolina
6 , Stanford
9 , Duke
11 , Notre Dame
15 , UC Berkeley
21 , U Virginia
23 , Vanderbilt
56 , U Michigan
63 , USC
86 , Georgetown
88 , Wake Forest
105 , UCLA
165 , Cornell
183 , Harvard
205 , Rice
227 , Northwestern
248 , Dartmouth
251 , Yale
271 , Princeton
286 , Columbia
308 , U Penn
317 , Brown</p>

<pre><code> 338 Division I teams are ranked
</code></pre>

<p>National Rankings voted by Coaches (as of January 15, 2008)</p>

<p>Rank , WOMEN'S DIVISION III BASKETBALL</p>

<p>14 , Tufts</p>

<p>RPI (as of February 5, 2008)</p>

<p>Rank , MEN'S DIVISION I ICE HOCKEY (59 colleges participate)</p>

<p>2 , U Michigan
8 , Notre Dame
20 , Princeton
22 , Cornell
26 , Yale
34 , Harvard
39 , Dartmouth
54 , Brown</p>

<p>RPI (as of February 4, 2008)</p>

<p>Rank , WOMEN'S DIVISION I ICE HOCKEY (34 colleges participate)</p>

<p>1 , Harvard
10 , Dartmouth
13 , Princeton
16 , Yale
20 , Cornell
26 , Brown</p>

2

<p>First, I'm not really sure what you are ranking. It seems to me that performance and fan interest are two very, very different things. How did you weight them to achieve an overall ranking? And, how did you measure attendance? Did you adjust at all for the overall size of the student body? If not, the results are just plain silly. Of course, U Michigan is going to have more people in the stands for a men's ice hockey game than Dartmouth will--UMichigan has a LOT more students than Dartmouth does! </p>

<p>Second, some students who want to PARTICIPATE in PLAYING sports might choose to play women's basketball at Brown rather than attend Stanford, at which gives athletic scholarships. It's one heck of a lot easier to make the Brown team than Stanford's. </p>

<p>Third, some students, especially those interested in drama, music,etc. might want to pass on colleges which give undue emphasis to sports--with "undue" being in the eye of the beholder. That doesn't mean these students don't enjoy watching sports. They just enjoy other things as much, if not more. If you are interested in attending good student plays or symphony performances, you might want to pass on some of the sports power houses.</p>

3

<p>jonri,
My apologies. I neglected to include the attendance data in the opening post. Please find below the attendance figures for the latest home game in each of these sports at each of these 30 colleges:</p>

<p>STUDENT/ALUMNI/LOCAL FAN SUPPORT</p>

<p>Attendance at last Home Game , MEN'S BASKETBALL</p>

<p>20767 , U North Carolina
17575 , Georgetown
14325 , Vanderbilt
14179 , Wake Forest
13765 , U Virginia
12111 , UCLA
11418 , Notre Dame
10407 , UC Berkeley
9714 , U Michigan
9563 , USC
9314 , Duke
7329 , Stanford
6243 , U Penn
4473 , Cornell
3104 , Princeton
2872 , Northwestern
1604 , Columbia
1561 , Yale
1175 , Rice
1117 , Brown
945 , Wash U
800 , Emory
766 , Harvard
523 , Dartmouth
515 , U Chicago
485 , Tufts
225 , Johns Hopkins
160 , MIT
na , Caltech</p>

<p>Attendance at last Home Game , WOMEN'S BASKETBALL </p>

<p>8831 , Notre Dame
5929 , Duke
4455 , Vanderbilt
4027 , Stanford
3763 , U North Carolina
3623 , U Virginia
1853 , UCLA
1284 , Harvard
1273 , U Michigan
1114 , Northwestern
1064 , Princeton
1021 , UC Berkeley
862 , Yale
727 , Wake Forest
711 , Georgetown
678 , USC
659 , Dartmouth
532 , U Penn
512 , Cornell
440 , Columbia
304 , Wash U
258 , Brown
250 , Tufts
214 , Rice
180 , U Chicago
150 , Johns Hopkins
101 , MIT
na , Caltech
No Team Emory</p>

<p>Attendance at last Home Game , MEN'S ICE HOCKEY</p>

<p>6806 , U Michigan
4426 , Dartmouth
4267 , Cornell
3142 , Yale
2673 , Harvard
2126 , Princeton
1498 , Brown
350 , Tufts
na , MIT
No Team , Caltech
No Team , Columbia
No Team , Duke
No Team , Emory
No Team , Georgetown
No Team , Johns Hopkins
No Team , Northwestern
No Team , Notre Dame
No Team , Rice
No Team , Stanford
No Team , U Chicago
No Team , U North Carolina
No Team , U Penn
No Team , U Virginia
No Team , UC Berkeley
No Team , UCLA
No Team , USC
No Team , Vanderbilt
No Team , Wake Forest
No Team , Wash U</p>

<p>Attendance at last Home Game , WOMEN'S ICE HOCKEY</p>

<p>1215 , Dartmouth
687 , Yale
617 , Harvard
432 , Brown
350 , Cornell
125 , Princeton
na , MIT
No Team , Caltech
No Team , Columbia
No Team , Duke
No Team , Emory
No Team , Georgetown
No Team , Johns Hopkins
No Team , Northwestern
No Team , Notre Dame
No Team , Rice
No Team , Stanford
No Team , Tufts
No Team , U Chicago
No Team , U Michigan
No Team , U North Carolina
No Team , U Penn
No Team , U Virginia
No Team , UC Berkeley
No Team , UCLA
No Team , USC
No Team , Vanderbilt
No Team , Wake Forest
No Team , Wash U</p>

4

<p>jonri,
In answer to your questions posed above, the data in the opening post is the actual national rankings for each of the sports. I didn't create any data, but drew from nationally used services. The data sources are:</p>

<p>Men's Basketball-Sagarin ratings as of last night (2/12/08). I may change this over to RPI, but I have heard that Sagarin is more accurate at this point.</p>

<p>Women's Basketball-RPI rankings as of 2/10/08</p>

<p>Men's Ice Hockey-RPI rankings as of 2/5/08</p>

<p>Women's Ice Hockey-RPI rankings as of 2/4/08</p>

<p>As for the measurement of attendance, I think you raise a very legitimate question as some of these colleges differ greatly in size. I will create a 2nd set of numbers that shows attendance as a percentage of the student bodies. </p>

<p>No argument about the difficulty of playing basketball at a place like Stanford than at a place like Brown. For the individual that is presented with that choice, then Brown could very well be the better choice. But if a student is considering a college that provides a strong social opportunity related to major sports, it is striking how different the winter athletic scenes are at the most highly-ranked colleges. </p>

<p>Lastly, re other student interests, I completely agree. I am presenting this information not to downplay other student activities, but rather to inform about the differences that exist in the winter athletic life at these colleges. In addition, I also believe that many prospective college students may not appreciate the mostly positive impact that athletic life can have on the vibe of a campus, eg, Duke basketball and their tent city called K-ville. If prospective students saw it, particularly first-hand, then they might be better able to understand what all of the excitement is about and decide if they wanted to join in the action.</p>

5

<p>^ Hawkette, perhaps a better way vs. percentage of student population is percentage of arena capacity.</p>

6

<p>ucbchemegrad,
I've done enough data digging on this one. 'll leave that one up to you. :) </p>

<p>But I think that there is also a limiting factor to gym size. I don't think anyone doubts that Duke could sell a lot more than 9314 tickets to their home basketball games. Heck, students are camping out all winter just to be able to get tickets into these games. The spirit and the enthusiasm engendered by that program has the whole campus rockin'.</p>

7

<p>
[quote]
But I think that there is also a limiting factor to gym size.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, that's the idea...not everyone who wants to see a basketball or hockey game can. If a college averages attendance close to stadium capacity, this likely indicates that the team is pretty good, and/or there are marginally fewer entertainment options nearby.</p>

<p>I'll get you started on arena capacities for the Pac-10 teams...:p
Stanford, Maples Pavilion, 7,392
UCLA, Pauley Pavilion, 12,829<br>
USC, Galen Center, 10,258
Berkeley, Haas Pavilion, 12,172</p>

8

<p>Fan Support Rank , MEN'S BASKETBALL Ratio of Home Attendance to Undergrad Enrollment , College</p>

<p>1 , 3.273 , Wake Forest
2 , 2.565 , Georgetown
3 , 2.246 , Vanderbilt
4 , 1.471 , Duke
5 , 1.367 , Notre Dame
6 , 1.213 , U North Carolina
7 , 1.141 , Stanford
8 , 0.938 , U Virginia
9 , 0.652 , Princeton
10 , 0.642 , U Penn
11 , 0.572 , USC
12 , 0.476 , UCLA
13 , 0.436 , UC Berkeley
14 , 0.385 , Rice
15 , 0.380 , U Michigan
16 , 0.352 , Northwestern
17 , 0.330 , Cornell
18 , 0.305 , Columbia
19 , 0.293 , Yale
20 , 0.186 , Brown
21 , 0.128 , Wash U
22 , 0.128 , Dartmouth
23 , 0.120 , Emory
24 , 0.114 , Harvard
25 , 0.107 , U Chicago
26 , 0.097 , Tufts
27 0.074 Carnegie Mellon
28 , 0.047 , Johns Hopkins
29 , 0.039 , MIT
, na , Caltech</p>

<p>Fan Support Rank , WOMEN'S BASKETBALL Ratio of Home Attendance to Undergraduate Enrollment , College</p>

<p>1 , 1.057 , Notre Dame
2 , 0.937 , Duke
3 , 0.698 , Vanderbilt
4 , 0.627 , Stanford
5 , 0.247 , U Virginia
6 , 0.224 , Princeton
7 , 0.220 , U North Carolina
8 , 0.191 , Harvard
9 , 0.168 , Wake Forest
10 , 0.162 , Yale
11 , 0.161 , Dartmouth
12 , 0.137 , Northwestern
13 , 0.104 , Georgetown
14 , 0.084 , Columbia
15 , 0.073 , UCLA
16 , 0.070 , Rice
17 , 0.055 , U Penn
18 , 0.050 , U Michigan
19 , 0.050 , Tufts
20 , 0.043 , UC Berkeley
21 , 0.043 , Brown
22 , 0.041 , USC
23 , 0.041 , Wash U
24 , 0.039 , Carnegie Mellon
25 , 0.038 , Cornell
26 , 0.037 , U Chicago
27 , 0.031 , Johns Hopkins
28 , 0.024 , MIT
, na , Caltech
No Team Emory</p>

<p>Fan Support Rank , MEN'S ICE HOCKEY Ratio of Home Attendance to Undergraduate Enrollment , College</p>

<p>1 , 1.083 , Dartmouth
2 , 0.589 , Yale
3 , 0.447 , Princeton
4 , 0.398 , Harvard
5 , 0.315 , Cornell
6 , 0.266 , U Michigan
7 , 0.249 , Brown
8 , 0.070 , Tufts </p>

<p>Fan Support Rank , WOMEN'S ICE HOCKEY Ratio of Home Attendance to Undergraduate Enrollment , College</p>

<p>1 , 0.297 , Dartmouth
2 , 0.129 , Yale
3 , 0.092 , Harvard
4 , 0.072 , Brown
5 , 0.026 , Cornell
6 , 0.026 , Princeton</p>

9

<p>Thanks for explanations/adjustments, Hawkette! I thought you had factored attendance into the rankings. Obviously, you didn't. I just didn't understand that. </p>

<p>While arena size certainly matters, I think your adjusted numbers give a much better "snapshot" of fan interest. Just my opinion, of course. It's amazing that attendance at a men's hockey game at Dartmouth exceeded undergrad enrollment given the limited number of grad/professional school students at Dartmouth and its isolated location. And the gap in attendance ratio between Dartmouth and the next college (Yale) shows how rabid Dartmouth hockey fans really are. </p>

<p>I'ts interesting to see how the rankings shift when you do it on a vs. undergrad size basis. Wake Forest's attendance numbers for men's basketball are positively mind-boggling! </p>

<p>Some of us would disagree with you on
[quote]
the mostly positive impact that athletic life can have on the vibe of a campus

[/quote]
. My kid really enjoys sports, but felt that the emphasis on sports really distorted the social life at Duke. It didn't help that when she toured Duke she couldn't find a single tour guide who had ever attended a student theatre production and/or student symphony. </p>

<p>But that's what makes the world go round. Different strokes for different folks.</p>

10

<p>jonri,
In doing the attendance analysis, I looked at the last home game for each school in each sport. In the case of Dartmouth men's ice hockey, their last home game was against American International. No attendance was provided so I chose the game before, which was against Harvard. I think this is their biggest rival in ice hockey and that explains some of the high attendance. However, Dartmouth hockey fans also showed up for the other 7 home games with an average attendance of 3432 fans, which is still a .84 ratio relative to the undergraduate enrollment. Pretty good support, I'd say. </p>

<p>Sorry your daughter didn't like Duke as I think that it and Stanford are the best blends of academics, social life and athletic life in the country, but I hope that she found a good undergraduate environment for her.</p>

11

<p>She did; she's already graduated. She disliked Stanford too--though nowhere near as much as Duke. Neither Duke nor Stanford would have been good places for my kid. Both emphasize sports too much and are too weak in performing arts compared to other colleges ranked at that level for my kid. Plus, until VERY recently Duke was just plain AWFUL in her principal EC. (Stanford excels in it.) </p>

<p>As I said before, different strokes for different folks. You can find happy and unhappy students at every college.</p>

<p>I do think the data you have compiled are useful for BOTH students who ARE very interested in sports and those who are not.</p>

12

<p>Something else to think about--even less popular sports can be a very fulfilling thing to be a fan of. On my campus--and I'm certain this is true on many others--certain non-revenue sports develop their own little cadre of loyal maniacs who attend every home meet/match/game (and some away games), have a name & t-shirts for their group, know the players by name, etc. </p>

<p>Of course, being one of 400 people at a gymnastics meet is a different experience than being one of 12,000 screaming basketball fans, just as they're both different from being one of 50,000 fans packing into a football stadium. But fans of all kinds of sports seem to find a way to carve out their own niche.</p>

13

<p>Here is another update on the winter sports as they come into the period that we all know and love as MARCH MADNESS!! Look for several of the USNWR Top 30 colleges to play in the Men's and Women's Basketball National Championships. </p>

<p>National Rankings according to NCAA RPI (as of March 3, 2008) </p>

<p>Rank , MEN'S DIVISION I BASKETBALL</p>

<p>3 , U North Carolina
4 , Duke
7 , UCLA
8 , Georgetown
10 , Vanderbilt
17 , Stanford
21 , Notre Dame
40 , USC
67 , Cornell
84 , Wake Forest
96 , UC Berkeley
112 , Brown
124 , U Virginia
178 , U Michigan
195 , Yale
201 , Northwestern
205 , Columbia
274 , U Penn
275 , Rice
295 , Dartmouth
303 , Harvard
333 , Princeton</p>

<pre><code> 341 Division I teams are ranked
</code></pre>

<p>National Rankings according to NCAA RPI (as of March 3, 2008) </p>

<p>Rank , WOMEN'S DIVISION I BASKETBALL</p>

<p>5 , U North Carolina
6 , Stanford
11 , Notre Dame
13 , Duke
18 , U Virginia
19 , Vanderbilt
21 , UC Berkeley
73 , U Michigan
77 , USC
86 , Georgetown
98 , Wake Forest
109 , UCLA
155 , Harvard
163 , Cornell
172 , Rice
230 , Dartmouth
236 , Northwestern
267 , Yale
276 , Princeton
288 , Columbia
319 , U Penn
330 , Brown</p>

<pre><code> 338 Division I teams are ranked
</code></pre>

<p>National Rankings voted by USA Today/ESPN (as of March 4, 2008) </p>

<p>Rank , WOMEN'S DIVISION III BASKETBALL</p>

<p>19 , Tufts</p>

<p>National Rankings according to NCAA RPI (as of March 3, 2008) </p>

<p>Rank , MEN'S DIVISION I ICE HOCKEY (59 colleges participate)</p>

<p>2 , U Michigan
11 , Notre Dame
16 , Princeton
20 , Harvard
25 , Cornell
32 , Yale
40 , Dartmouth
52 , Brown</p>

<p>RPI (as of February 4, 2008) </p>

<p>Rank , WOMEN'S DIVISION I ICE HOCKEY (34 colleges participate)</p>

<p>1 , Harvard
8 , Dartmouth
12 , Princeton
17 , Yale
21 , Cornell
24 , Brown</p>

14

<p>When factoring in this student support stuff, u have to remember that diff schools set aside a diff number of seats for students. Also, the size of student bodies plays a factor. So whwn looking at ratio of home attendance to undergraderollement can help gage student enthusiasm, i dont think the rankingx are extremely accurate. UNC, Duke and several other schools on that list have more student enthusiam than does wake around teams imo.</p>

15

<p>patsandheels,
All are ACC schools and the games and the atmosphere are intense. UNC and Duke definitely have a higher regional and national profile to Wake, but I think it is pretty impressive how little Wake Forest (undergrad population of 4332) consistently attracts 14,000+ fans. </p>

<p>The key point is not the difference between what you find at UNC or Duke vs what you find at Wake. The striking difference is the quality of play and the environment you find at the games of any of these schools vs what you will find at many of their elite school brethren, eg, Ivies and the D3 schools. Big, big difference.</p>

16

<p>Hawkette, hockey arenas cannot usually sit for than 6,000 spectators. Michigan's Yost Arena has a capacity of 6,600. </p>

<p>Yost</a> Ice Arena - History & Facts</p>

<p>So comparing attendance to the total undergraduate student population to determine "fan support" is not telling. I think what is more telling is how hard students try to get those tickets, whether or not the arena is sold out on a regular basis and the atmosphere and energy at those games. I have been to Hockey games at Cornell, Dartmouth, Harvard and Michigan. All of them were electrifying. In fact, I think Hockey is quite possibly the most fun college sport, partially because the arenas can only sit very few people and those who get tickets are typically rabid fans! LOL!</p>

17

<p>Alexandre,
As you probably guessed, I am not much of a hockey fan. Typically, I would not include a sport in this type of thread that is played by so few schools (only 59 Men's teams and 81 Women's teams) and has such a limited appeal. But a few posters argued for it in other threads and so, in response to them, I decided to include it in the results/attendance recaps that I have been posting. </p>

<p>As for the popularity of ice hockey, the attendance figures are generally less than those for women's basketball games. Eight colleges in the USNWR Top 30 play men’s ice hockey and only 4 of them average more than 3000 fans a game. Probably there is greater interest at some schools than these numbers indicate, but those are the numbers. By contrast, for women’s basketball, 28 of the USNWR Top 30 compete and 6 of those average more than 3000 fans a game and a couple regularly get many more than that and have similar problems with stadium capacity (eg, Duke). I know you like hockey and it is popular at your alma maters of U Michigan and Cornell, but I’ll gladly take Women’s Basketball. Anyway, if you want to post stuff on hockey and the experience that students will have at various schools, then please don’t let me stand in your way.</p>

18

<p>College Hockey, like College Baseball is definitely regional. The Northeast (particularly NY, Maine and Massachusetts) and the Midwest (particularly Michigan, Minnesota, Wisconsin, North Dakota and Colorado) support College Hockey just as the South East and West Coast support College Baseball. </p>

<p>Michigan has a pretty rich Baseball tradition. It won the College World Series twice (1953 and 1962). I believe Michigan made it to the Super Regionals of the College Baseball world series last year, and even then, most Michigan students and alums didn't really care. I assume that in the South, most people don't really care much for college Hockey. College Basketball and College Football are definitely national sports, but not Baseball or Hockey.</p>

19

<p>No question that football and basketball (men and women) are the pre-eminent college sports nationally. Nothing else is close on a national basis. </p>

<p>However, for baseball and hockey, I must disagree as there are sooooo many more schools that play baseball and the games are a fixture on ESPN late in the season and then throughout the playoffs and the College World Series. Baseball is not a regional sport at all (although I can see how one that attends a cold weather college might think this). There are 293 colleges that play baseball and 272 colleges also field women’s softball teams. By comparison, 59 play men’s ice hockey and 81 play women’s ice hockey.</p>

20

<p>Hawkette, I am talking popularity and revenues earned from college sports. Hockey and Baseball are regional in scope. I am fully aware that there are far more college baseball programs than college hockey programs, but neither are that popular on a national level. Like I said, I lived 4 years in the Northeast/mid-Atlantic and 7 years in the Midwest and college baseball was a non-entity. Michigan has made it to a dozen college World series and won a couple of National Championships and the sport is less popular than Gymnastics or Swimming at the university. You will find this to be the case on the majorty of campuses in the Northeast and Midwest. In the Southeast and West Coasts however, I agree that Baseball is very popular.</p>