“People are likely going to ask if your new baby is a girl or a boy if you play with them by withholding that basic information.”
But why does it matter and why does society put some much focus and priority on two genders? As humans, we’re much more than that.
And the world is changing as evidenced by this thread.
I wasn’t trying to change it, but was merely curious about how it would play out. I grew up on a household where the boys were very privileged. They got the majority of the college funding, even though I had the highest stats. They were given many more career choices — I was told I could consider nurse, teacher, stewardess, or secratary — and my dad made me take typing classes my brothers didn’t have to. I wasn’t allowed to play any sport except tennis or figure skating (although I could beat my brothers in driveway basketball and loved baseball). It goes without saying that my social rules were much stricter. Our church had no role for girls, but my brothers got to be alter boys. Being a girl kind of sucked in my house growing up. The workplace for women in the 80s when I entered it wasn’t much better.
So slotting my kids from birth in the mind of strangers as women in a world that in my experience treated girls as inferior bugged me. And what I found is that it is more ingrained than I had imagined. I’m not sorry I did it. It made me even more attentive to making sure they got treated as well as boys did throughout their childhood.
Doschicos, people notice and categorize by gender, right from birth. Doctors are people too. Everyone does this and it will continue.
It matters. It matters for medical reasons, social reasons, documentation, all kinds of relevant reasons. And you can talk about how everything is changing all day long, but only women have babies and they are always male or female at birth (excluding exceedingly rare situation where one has organs of both).
People can pretend it doesn’t matter all day long, but that doesn’t make it so. Hence, the ongoing boxing of the air in reference to this issue.
Intparent: That’s interesting that you grew up that way, with boys being privileged and even receiving more college funding in your family. That’s about the farthest thing from my blue collar experience growing up in a family of equal numbers of both, and I am likely older than you are.
I think a lot of this is perception, the older I get. But then I have never known anyone who was treated that way nor been in any environment where boys were valued more highly than girls. Not even in the church. Not in the workplace, back in the day. Perhaps some of it was my egalitarian perception. Not Catholic (which I assume you are), but I attended for many years with my spouse. Even there, women had many roles.
MODERATOR’S NOTE: Please stay away from religious topics. I edited/deleted a few posts.
Sorry, I don’t buy it. I personally know many women treated like this. And it still goes on in some families. It isn’t “perception” to those who lived and are living it.
I’m glad I know more enlightened people, I guess. Not buying that this is widespread.
This kind of thing…when I talk with people in the larger world who aren’t into the nuance of it all…is really going to hurt colleges like this…i believe there are many ways to help individuals without declaring edicts like this…again, i’m speaking on how its perceived (which becomes its own truth) rather than the more in-depth conversations here.
How, exactly, do you propose that colleges handle this while at the same time letting themselves be driven by fear of how provocateurs who don’t care about the college, its students, or its mission are going to lie about it in order to stoke some outrage, largely among people who also don’t care about the college, its students, or its mission?
As I see this, Mount Holyoke merely said something fairly sensible: If you are addressing a large group, and you don’t know all of them and how they identify themselves, it may be a mistake to assume they all identify themselves as women, even if the vast majority certainly do. Barnard does take a different approach, more aggressive and ideological – if it bothers you to be called a woman, there’s an Exit sign right over there. Mount Holyoke didn’t forbid teachers to address their female-identified students as women, and as far as I can tell wasn’t proposing to enforce gender-identification rules with any significant penalties in any event. The kerfuffle over this had nothing to do with what Mount Holyoke said and everything to do with cynical exploitation of transphobia and promoting a false narrative that colleges have adopted one or another crazy ideology.
I feel like I have to chime in as a current Barnard student and say that I know many Barnard students who identify as nonbinary or trans, and that the general consensus among students is that they are a welcome and integral part of our community. The vast majority of professors, in my experience, make every effort to be inclusive of all students in their classes.
The Barnard administration might be uncomfortable or feeling tension about the role of women’s colleges where not all of the students are women, but most current students (that I know of - I don’t speak for everyone) are comfortable with the presence of people of all gender identities and expressions in our community. I’m not offended by being referred to as a “Barnard student” instead of a “Barnard woman”, and I imagine that its the same for the majority of women’s college students.
If alumni or unrelated parents on the internet want to make a deal of it, go ahead. Women’s college students are secure in our identities and welcome our peers of various gender expressions who feel that a women’s college is the right place for them.
“But then I have never known anyone who was treated that way nor been in any environment where boys were valued more highly than girls. Not even in the church. Not in the workplace, back in the day. Perhaps some of it was my egalitarian perception. Not Catholic (which I assume you are), but I attended for many years with my spouse. Even there, women had many roles.”
@TranquilMind, So, growing up, half of your doctors were women, half of your nurses were men, half of the priests in your husband’s Catholic church were women…? I don’t think I would define your “perception” as “egalitarian” so much as warped. If you had stuck with your own home and upbringing, I wouldn’t take issue with you. But virtually no church or workplace in our childhood were, in any way, egalitarian.
“without declaring edicts like this”
Not edicts, suggestions.
I will say, I am one of six sisters. I feel as though our parents expected less of our brother than they did the rest of us. My mother, in particular, seemed to think that we girls could all be held to a very high standard in academics and behavior, whereas my brother had to be cut slack , because, you know, boys/men. I’m not saying she thought he was better, almost the opposite. Which was sad, because he was just as capable as the rest of us and sometimes, some of the girls would have benefited from more support.
I want to repeat and amplify a couple of comments made up thread.
And finally, people don’t choose to transition from one gender to another because they delight in making others uncomfortable. Yes, there are people who delight in flouting gender conventions for shock value just like there are people who delight in being non-PC or even straight up racist or misogynistic for shock value.
In general, people transition because it is intolerable to remain in the body type/gender identity of their birth. The world is often not kind to these people. Personally, I am willing to make a little extra effort to be kind and considerate to members of any marginalized community.
Honestly, this is way more complicated than it needs to be. I like Barnard’s statement.
I bet most of the parents here like Barnard’s statement. I do, not that anyone is asking me. But my experience is that people under 30 would tend to prefer MoHo’s, and would see Barnard’s as old-fashioned and hostile.
@JHS Not sure how it would be construed as hostile. " You can stay if you transition but if it doesn’t suit you anymore as a women’s college, we will help you figure out your next move". I think that’s fair and pretty straighforward.
“A trans man who has transitioned fully prior to college may still choose a women’s college for safety reasons.”
Sure. But other people would benefit from that safety, and they don’t all belong at a women’s college. A small, young-looking gay man isn’t a match for Mt. Holyoke, even though he might have the same safety concerns as a trans man.
@Hanna so, what are you suggesting?
It’s hostile precisely in its difference from MoHo: [Translating freely] “We are are a women’s college and we will refer to ourselves as women. If you don’t want to be included in that, please leave.” vs. “We acknowledge that all members of our community do not define themselves as women, and we will take care to respect individuals’ desire not to be called women, including by not assuming before asking specifically that everyone in a group identifies as a woman.”