Work/Study Abroad?

Parents Forum
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We are a Canadian family living in Canada. I follow this forum because, even though it is US in focus, there are many aspects of high school and post-secondary education that are generic enough to be applicable to our own situation (plus I don’t have a Canadian version of the Parent Cafe to draw upon). While the Canadian and US education systems are often similar, especially at the high school level, I have come to appreciate some of the cultural differences that translate into different educational experiences for students in the US versus here in Canada. Reading the posts on this forum has led me to broaden my wish list for what I hope my kids get out of their post-secondary educational experiences. It could be just representative of the CC community specifically but I get the sense that in general, you Americans are far more adventurous than we Canadians. One of the things that has intrigued me is how more common it is for students in the US to attend school’s far from home and to participate in study or work abroad opportunities, even in high school. As I wrote in another thread, even gap years, other than a victory lap/5th year of high school, are pretty unknown here. Most students in Canada also do not travel that far from home to university, maybe a couple of hours drive at most and many commute from home.

We’ve been casually investigating potential universities and programs for DS19 for a couple of years now, taking the opportunity to visit a few schools while we’ve been on vacation the past two summers. Now that he is in grade 11 however we are taking the search more seriously. DS19 is an excellent student in an accelerated congregated AP program. He is strongly intellectual with broad interests and a passionate musician. One of the things that I find attractive about your universities in the US is their focus on a broad based education. The Canadian university system is set up such that students apply for admission directly to their major or at least to a specific faculty. It is far more rigid and prescribed and there is far less room in our degree structure for general electives. Since DS19’s interests are so broad however, we are trying to take a leaf out of your US system’s book and find programs that will be the most flexible in terms of allowing him to take as many non-major electives as possible.

DS19 is leaning towards studying Chemistry and knowing that an undergraduate degree in Chemistry is not the most employable, I’m exploring ways for him to gain experiences that will allow him to grow as an individual, to make the most out of his undergraduate experience, and allow him to stand out to potential employers or graduate programs. While an excellent student and pretty autonomous and responsible, DS19 is on the shy side and has had a fairly sheltered privileged suburban upbringing (though I would characterize ourselves as comfortably off, not wealthy). I would characterize my parenting style up to now as “helicopter light” and I’m more involved in the planning side of things and encouraging the kids to maximize their potential. I don’t get involved in the nitty gritty day to day aspects of their educations and my biggest goal is for them to become self-sufficient and self-advocating. I think DS19 would benefit from the opportunity to become more independent and develop more self-confidence and dh and I would both prefer for him to have an away-from-home university experience as we both did. Additionally however, one of the things I think could benefit him would be a study or work abroad experience. Universities here are starting to promote their study abroad programs more actively and they are becoming more popular with students, but it is still far less common here than it is for students in other countries. I’d be interested in hearing about the experiences of parents whose kids participated in work or study abroad opportunities. Were there things you learned in retrospect that you knew in advance? Are there specific things you would recommend looking for when researching the various options?

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D is on one now. Both, in fact - she is studying abroad at a large university, but she went to that country 6 weeks early work with a professor (that was called research, and was unpaid though her home college funded her living expenses).

For her the choice of country was limited by her somewhat late decision of major. By the time she shifted to the current one (she’d also intended to major in Chem), she needed certain courses and the only places that her home college would accept them from were a limited number of Us in English-speaking countries. Which is too bad, because she studied Spanish for 6 years and would have benefited (IMO) from immersion in a Spanish speaking country.

Another drawback of her current situation is that this summer, the one between junior and senior year, is the most important in terms of internships, and this country’s schedule is different - her summer break is too short for those that require 10-12 weeks. So that’s been a challenge for her.

This large university has MUCH larger classes than her home college(like 10x more students per class), and the teaching style is very different. That’s been a challenge too, and has reinforced for her that she made the right choice in her own LAC…there she knows all her profs, if she has a question she grabs lunch and sits in their office during office hours and works with them one on one - stuff NO ONE does at this large U.

But the experience has been incredibly positive, despite all that.

If you are asking about work - not abroad - she’s had an internship or research position both previous summers, and also works on campus during the school year (paid, in her field).

She made her own decisions about study abroad, and handled getting the job, the funding, etc herself, though she kept me in the loop about it.

Is that what you were asking for?

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@OHMomof2 yes thank you for your detailed response. If you don’t mind me asking, how does the cost of her time studying abroad compare to if she were attending at her home school? Has it been significantly more expensive?

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@gwnorth - no, it’s exactly the same. That’s the promise of her home college, that her financial aid goes with her and we pay the same thing we pay any other semester.

Full pay students would generally find the abroad semester cheaper than those at the home college, actually, even with travel costs, because the full price of her school is around $70K and most other countries’ Us cost less.

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We have a few experiences with this.

One daughter did an exchange to South America during high school. We also hosted two high school students here. One was from South America (from the family that hosted our daughter) and the other was from Europe. I understand that not all exchanges work out perfectly. Our experience however was very positive. Our daughter had a great time in South America, improved her Spanish, got to see an interesting part of the world, and also I think gained confidence that helped her when going away to university. The two exchange students that we hosted worked out very well, and I ended up thinking of them as my “extra children”. I think that they both improved their English significantly while they were here, and they both appeared to have a good time. We still occasionally hear from both families. The extra cost of study abroad was the cost of the flights. For us there was no other additional cost although we did give our student some spending money for her time abroad.

I am originally from Canada, but did university in the US. I went to a very highly ranked university here (#1 in the world for what I was studying). However, upon graduation I discovered that I had a problem: Canadian companies prefer to hire from Canadian universities. US companies need to hire students who have the legal right to work in the US. Two other problems of US schools for Canadian students: They are very expensive (much more so than when I did it many decades ago), and admissions to US schools is rather random and unpredictable and seems to depend upon things other than academic ability. As such I do not recommend US universities for Canadian students, even if you can get into very highly ranked schools down here. A couple of things that surprised me while I was at school in the US: One of my friends stole a clock from the laundry room and just put it up on the wall in his dorm room. This would have been unthinkable where I came from. Another was mugged in my dorm. I was also pickpocketed at one point (I only lost $20, the wallet was eventually mailed back to me), and had a coat stolen. All of this was new to me. Perhaps I got to see a part of the world that I might not otherwise have witnessed.

We now live in the US. However, one of my daughters is a university student in Canada. So far it seems to be going very well. She loves it and has made friends and has good grades. One thing that I didn’t think of when I was in high school but which is probably worth thinking about: There are a few very good small universities in Canada. This is not nearly as common as here in the US where LACs are so common. However, if I were to do it over again I might want to take a look at some of the smaller schools in Canada if I were to graduate high school there (or here). Also, most of my relatives in Canada go to university in the same province where they did high school. It might be worth looking a bit more broadly – although I do understand that there are very good universities in most if not all of the provinces.

I do think that exchange programs abroad while in university are well worth considering.

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My daughter did a semester abroad in South America while in high school organized through a small Argentinian non-profit (a lot cheaper than going through CIEE, AFS, etc.) In college she did an internship in Kenya, also organized through a non-profit, but for which she arranged ahead of time to receive college credit. That too was much cheaper than going through a program at her university.

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@katliamom a semester abroad in high school? That’s brave! How did she find handling the logistics of the travel on her own? DS19 hasn’t travelled much, just a few family trips. The confidence to travel on his own is one of the things I’d like for him to gain.

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My daughter studied abroad for a semester in Cadiz, Spain when she was a HS sophomore. It was a wonderful experience for her. She’ll be in Florence, Italy as a college junior next fall.

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One of my daughters spent fall semester of her junior year in college in Ghana, and my other daughter spent fall semester of her junior year in college in Vietnam. As is true of most journeys, not every moment was wonderful, but both of them are happy they had these experiences, as am I.

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@gwnorth – she handled it just fine :slight_smile:

She’d done some traveling with the family, but this was very much her first time on her own. Except that, in a program, they’re not really “on their own” when they do a semester abroad, in high school in particular. The program picks them up, places them with a family (my daughter’s host family had done it before, they knew and anticipated her needs) gives them orientation… after that they’re in school… and home with their host family. My daughter loved it… she lived in Buenos Aires, quickly mastered the (very good and very inexpensive) public transportation system… and was so comfortable that by the end of her stay she went traveling with another American who was a year older. This time they WERE on their own… which certainly gave me pause… but the girls did just great. It was a huge experience for both of them, and both went off to college with a greater sense of self-confidence. I’m actually a big proponent of travel as a way of developing a sense of self. When my son went through a rough time in college and dropped out I sent him to Nepal for a couple of months. He came back a different person. In a good way :slight_smile:

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I have to challenge your notion that Canadians aren’t as adventurous or that there aren’t opportunities. Maybe my family and experience are not the norm, but certainly not rare. My parents did not go to college, so essentially told us that we could make college-related decision better than they could, and left me and my sibling alone. This is possible because almost every school costs about the same in Canada, quality is pretty consistent, and the entry requirements are so transparent.

I grew up in Canada and went to college in Canada but far away from home (a 12 hour drive). My sibling did the same. Neither of us now lives in Canada. My sibling fell in love with another country after going on exchange in college, then followed up with a masters degree there. I went to the US for a PhD at a top ranked school, and am still in the US working (though hoping to return home soon).

Because it’s so straightforward to get into college in Canada, I think it’s easier to take time off between high school and college. I didn’t take ‘rigorous’ courses in high school because it wouldn’t have made a difference for college. Instead, I finished high school early and took a semester to volunteer extensively in my community and earn some spending money for college. (My family couldn’t afford to pay my way to travel for my gap semester.)

I went to UBC, and yes, most of the students were from the surrounding suburbs, there’s a completely different experience for everyone who lives on campus. I lived in an international dorm for sophomore year and made amazing friends from all over the world. Plenty of my friends went abroad for a semester through UBCs exchange programs, did co-op internships in the US, and like me, left Canada for grad/professional school. I have friends from college living all over the world now and visit them as time allows.

Yes, undergraduate degrees in Canada are more rigorous in terms of the course work focus, but it certainly prepared me for grad school better than my friends who went to small LACs, since I had already taken some of the grad classes before and knew my field with much greater breadth and depth. You do apply and enter under one program, but it’s not set in stone. I switched programs at least 3 times in college, until my academic advisor was sick of me. Its not hard to make your degree what you want it to be though. I studied chemistry with thesis, but had enough time and credits to be 6 credits shy of a second degree in biology and 3 credits away from a minor in psych. It’s common for people to take the typical ‘easy’ electives because they want a to keep their GPA high, but you can have a richer experience if you’re willing to risk it to learn something different. At UBC, you can design your own major and run peer-taught (faculty supervised) seminars. I’m sure other universities have similar programs. Even when I was an undergrad more than 10 years ago they were experimenting with ways to make students try courses outside their comfort zone. Another great thing about how big the schools in Canada are is the sheer variety of classes. If I could go back now, there are so many classes that I would want to take.

If you want your kids to have a richer university experience in Canada, go to a school that has a large number of students living on campus. Find a school such as St.FX that is not in a large city, or find a school ranked highly enough to pull in a lot of internationals and out-of-province kids. (Macleans usually lists the proportions in their rankings) The exchange programs offered now are excellent and vast. The schedules don’t always match up, and credits don’t always transfer, but it’s also not uncommon for students to take 5 years to finish these days in order to accommodate internships and co-ops, so there’s time. Some schools have dual-degree programs. A friend did a CS/Chinese degree through SFU and a Chinese university (2 years at each). Another friend got very involved in Rotary and went on several international trips.

The kinds of experiences I saw people having at UBC when I was there were so varied. I could give you so many more examples. People get out what they put in. You can live at home, go to the easiest/safest classes and do your homework at the library. Or you can do 1000 other different things to make college your best experience. And all you need is some ability to navigate websites and ask questions, and show up to take advantage of the opportunities.

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I think the self-selected sample on CC is more adventursome…there are 3000 colleges in the USA and most people go closer to home. The students on CC often are looking for more competitve schools which are farther away.

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Eldest spent 6 months in England last year studying abroad. It was a wonderful and perspective changing experience for her. She got to experience a big, true city school in a more traditional classroom style from her small suburban, Socratic liberal arts college. As a journalism major, taking courses in another country with very different approaches was fascinating. Because of how the semester was set-up, she ended up with a dorm room the last two months even though her classes were completed so she started her summer break there. She was able to visit 10 countries… some with visiting family but most on her own planning trains and flights and youth hostels. Scared the willies out of me but she came back with so much confidence and the whole world just busted open for her. It did wonders for her anxiety to get away from dare I say American ideas of what makes a successful life. She really takes ownership of her life now. We will be encouraging our son who starts college in the fall to study abroad too. We aren’t a family that can fund something like that for summer or as a graduation gift. Going through the college made all the difference.

I do know that it’s hard for science majors to study abroad but that might be something to ask during your guys exploration.

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@geraniol thank you for your response. Perhaps it’s just me that’s not brave then. When I graduated 30 years ago, travelling was very much the purview of the wealthy, even spring break trips. I’ve never travelled more than a couple of hours away from home by myself. I’ve certainly never flown by myself and I’m almost 50. My family was comfortable enough financially. We had the basics but did not have extra for such perks. I was fortunate that my parents were able to pay for my tuition and books and for me to go away to school. Doing so was far less expensive then and I had an older brother away at school at the same time. Of course the cost here in Canada is negligible compared to what many families in the US pay (though we have no real concept of a full ride scholarship. The most most students can hope for is a one time entrance scholarship of a few thousand dollars). Going away to school was a big step for me. I was the only one of my high school friends who did so. I now know people in my circle of friends who did the “backpacking across Europe” rite of passage after they graduated but I didn’t know anyone who did that at the time that I graduated (and my friends who did so are not Canadian). The bravest thing I ever did was move in with dh after I graduated rather than returning home. For me I needed the security of a guaranteed paycheque and dh was already working full-time while doing his degree on-line. I went straight to work, got married a year latter, and bought a house. Now that I’m older I sometimes regret that I didn’t take the time to travel more, but the thought of it as a possibility never even occurred to me. In any case I’m older than you and study or working abroad was certainly not on my radar. I don’t even remember it being promoted by my school. Living in a country where I was not fluent in the language would have taken me grossly out of my comfort zone even though I grew up with a Hispanic mother and studied French for many many years, including a few years of French immersion when I was younger, and in first year university (but was still not fluent in either language but I suspect would have quickly gained proficiency). I guess I’m just not much of a risk taker.

We are fortunately better off financially than my parents, so I think it is something we could realistically swing for DS19 if he chose to do so, and I am actively going to try to encourage him to consider it. While he is interested in travelling, I think he might consider going away by himself as a bit daunting. On the other hand at the schools he is considering for the most part it wouldn’t be until at least after sophomore year, so a few more years to mature yet (though one of the schools he is considering does offer a first year program in England but the price is $$$). He’s only ever had one “away from home on his own” experience at a week long camp a few years ago. We’ve only started travelling as a family for the past few years and we haven’t been anywhere exotic. As I’ve said, he’s been pretty sheltered, but he is very mature and fairly self-sufficient. He is currently working on his learner’s permit for driving and this summer I intend to get him meal planning, grocery shopping, and cooking. He already does his own laundry and other household chores.

In terms of schools under consideration he is strongly favouring Queen’s, Western, McMaster, and Waterloo. All very large schools. Queen’s is about 3-3.5 hours away by car and Western 1.5 hours. McMaster and Waterloo are commutable distance from home by car in theory (though it would be inconvenient). I personally would prefer him to go to a smaller school, but the smaller schools tend to be less academically selective. We have toured Dalhousie in Halifax and Memorial in St. John’s when on vacation. If he were to attend one of them it would be much more of an “away” experience than the other schools that are closer to home. We did not tour St. FX though we did take a quick drive around Acadia’s campus. On the other hand, if he went to Mac or Waterloo he could live away for the first 1-2 years and then commute from home to save money for an abroad experience or grad school. We are also trying to evaluate the schools’ internship/co-op programs that could conceivably give him even more of an “away from home” experience, especially if he could land one in another country.

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@rosered55 and @MaineLonghorn, your kids are brave!

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@DadTwoGirls, thank you for your feedback. I think that spending so much time on this forum has led me to value the LAC experience and think that it would be an excellent fit for DS19. I’m certainly familiar with the small primarily undergraduate universities on paper, but they don’t tend to be on the radar of most students here, especially the top academic students. We did tour a couple of them when we were visiting Nova Scotia last summer. Interestingly enough when we toured the University of King’s College and Dalhousie, the other tour participants were both families from the US. I really liked both of them but I think those schools will be a hard sell for DS. While he is open to going away to school, I don’t think he is seriously considering going out of province. He is an excellent student and as such is looking at academically selective schools which are for the most part the major research universities. For whatever reason we don’t tend to have academically selective small schools, especially not in Ontario where we live. I also suspect he is considering the school’s where his friends are applying. As for attending school in the US, I agree with your assessment and as much as he would love to attend MIT, that’s just a fantasy.

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My younger son was an international relations major and spent two semesters abroad and part of one summer as well. He was studying Arabic and all his experiences were in Jordan - all run by different outfits. The first, a summer program, included a family homestay. Apparently there were few complaints for school year programs in the past, but it was pretty much of a disaster for his group. The women had the best family experience. Basically men couldn’t be alone with women so they were not allowed to be part of family life at all. His first family didn’t even speak Arabic at home, the second one shunted him off to a rooftop room separate from the house and fed him jam on pita. The next, his favorite, was an immersion program where students were required to pledge not to speak English. They were paired up with Jordanian students on a Jordanian university campus. They were in a city up north, where there was little tourism and no one spoke English. That was a pretty good program. The final program was in Amman, and inlcuded a local internship. A lot of the internships involved working with children something he didn’t want to do, and what he ended up doing he thought was sort of worthless, but I will say it did come up in an interview as a very positive thing when he was job hunting. He said his Arabic got worse during this semester - the immersion really made a difference for him.

Since your son seems likely to be studying a science, you may want to look at programs that will offer appropriate courses that he can get credit from the home university for. (This turned out to be a bit of an issue for my son, but it all worked out.) I know my niece who was an engineering major found a program in Dublin she really enjoyed.

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@mathmom sounds like your son had some very interesting experiences.

Yes transference of credits is going to be a big consideration. The website of one of the school’s he’s considering pretty much indicates it’s up to the students to figure it all out and get the courses they want approved and they make no guarantee that the courses will be accepted for credit. Nor do they guarantee that the students will be able to register in the courses they want. While they say they want students to go on exchange the tone of their website leaves me feeling that they aren’t really committed to it. They certainly don’t make the process easy.

I’ve been playing around with the course outlines for the chemistry programs at the schools he’s likely to apply to and I think that at a couple of them it would potentially be possible for him to have his third year second semester be filled completely with electives so as not to impact courses in his major. That way he wouldn’t have to worry about getting specific courses. The only downside is that if he wants to do a co-op or internship that’s when the interviews and placements usually happen so he would miss out on that. What would be ideal would be for him to be able to combine a semester abroad followed by a work placement/internship in the same country (which could also go a ways to help pay for his time away). I’m trying to figure out if it would be possible to do that at any of the schools. That could be a consideration when it comes time for him to make his final school choice.

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@gwnorth, I agree that my daughters are brave. But part of the reason they chose the countries they did was that they felt the study abroad structure would provide a relatively safe way to go to parts of the world they might be less likely to visit on their own (such as Europe). Since then, both have traveled on their own to more “daring” locations. My older daughter traveled around the world for three months after she graduated from college, and my younger daughter went back to southeast Asia (Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos) with a friend before she started graduate school.

An aspect of their study abroad programs that all of us found particularly invaluable was the time they spent, as white people, being in the minority.

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It’s funny, my high school age daughter went alone to summer camp for many years in Banff, Canada. We live in Houston. She always said the Canadian campers were the most adventurous kids she knew and the program certainly made her more adventurous. Maybe consider a longer summer camp or one in another country.