Would a Harvard Extension School degree hold the same weight as a Harvard degree?

ClassicRockerDad · February 5, 2008, 11:02am

Wow citygirlsmom! I don't think I said anything like what you have in your post, and I am nothing like that.

What I said (or at least think I said) was basically was that I think it's pretty dumb to risk leaving a potential employer feeling deceived, especially when the truth as it stands is pretty darn impressive in its own right. It is not the credential itself that concerns me, it's whether I can trust someone who I want to add to my team to be straight with me even if it might cost them. Because people do make the distinction between Harvard College and Harvard Extension, rightly or wrongly, I think it's important to get out in front of it so as not to have the appearance of trying to sneak one by. If you create doubts about your integrity in the mind of a potential employer either before or after you are hired, it will end up hurting you in the long run.

ClassicRockerDad · February 5, 2008, 11:06am

Northstarmom, just so you know, I've taken evening classes at other places like UMASS Boston and CUNY Queens College. The students at HES are much better because the classes are much harder and the slackers wouldn't make it through. Unlike Harvard College, Harvard Extension is harder to get through than to get in.

Roger_Dooley · February 5, 2008, 11:31am

I think it's indisputable that at today's ultra-elite colleges, one's classmates are diverse, motivated, and highly accomplished. Living and studying with these young people is indeed a key part of an elite school education.

Am01, relatively few students are "development admits", i.e., students who are qualified but got a boost in the process due to past or planned major donations. The price tag for a development admit is high enough that chances are that the students will bring some interesting life experiences to the mix. If I were a college freshman, I think it would be much more interesting to share a dorm room with Bill Gates's (or maybe even Donald Trump's) kid vs. a grind from a magnet school who happened to break 2300 on his SAT. But, I digress... I don't want to hijack the thread.

This discussion kind of reminds me of the Barnard question raised once in a while: "Since a Barnard degree is officially a Columbia University degree, can I just put 'Columbia University' on my resume?" My response would be the same - if you have to ask, don't do it. Be proud of the degree you earned, and don't try to misrepresent it to employers. Cutting a corner now might look expedient, but might raise doubts later. Either state the nature of the degree clearly on the resume, or be sure to provide any elaboration early in the interview process. Even the latter approach might irritate some employers, but it's better to do it yourself than be outed later.

Northstarmom · February 5, 2008, 12:18pm

"Northstarmom, just so you know, I've taken evening classes at other places like UMASS Boston and CUNY Queens College. The students at HES are much better because the classes are much harder and the slackers wouldn't make it through. Unlike Harvard College, Harvard Extension is harder to get through than to get in."

I can believe that HES is harder to get through than is Harvard, and I am sure that's the case for many other colleges, including some that are much lower ranked. I know it's very hard to flunk out of Harvard College.

Still, the best part of a Harvard education IMO is the education that one gets from being around peers. That was what was most remarkable, inspiring and interesting about my Harvard education, and what continues to influence me decades later.

I believe that there are many other colleges -- including second tier ones -- that can provide better classroom teaching. S is at a second tier LAC, and the majority of his classes are far better taught than what I received at Harvard.

What I got that he didn't, though, was the catalytic experience of being surrounded by extremely bright, internally motivated, students who were passionately involved in professional quality ECs that they ran and participated in out of their own interest, not because of course requirements.

Meanwhile, the average H student is doing these kind of ECs while also getting good grades in their coursework. While there is grade inflation, still, what H students would call an "easy" course is what students at many other colleges would consider quite difficult. For instance, I remember the look of horror on the face of a friend who was attending a less competitive college when I told her that one of my courses was "easy" because it only required an essay exam midterm and a 20-page paper. I was honestly stating my viewpoint.

It wasn't until years later when I taught a grad school class at a second tier college and assigned my students only to do a 10-page paper and a class presentation on that paper that I learned that many college students don't even have to write a 5-page paper throughout their college careers. My grad students were in the Education School, most had never had to write a 10-page paper before and had no idea how to do it. Their average age was about 40, and they were studying to become teachers after having worked in other professions.

citygirlsmom · February 5, 2008, 12:33pm

so, do you think copmmuter schools are failing? I have been reading about the HES program, and IN THE CLASSES are both types of students....so IF someone wants to engage with "harvard" types, they indeed can

and LIFE itself, those that you work with, talk to, play sports with, volunteer with, are all morons who can't carry on deep meaningful conversation

And meanwhile, many students doing Extended learning are parents, working, have real life experiences to add to the mix? Do you not think that a 30 year old who actually worked in the real world, got sued, sued someone, worked for political campaigns etc is somehow less of an asset to class? that a room full of 22 year olds is somehow "better" or more insightful?

And if the classes are Harvard at on par with "second" tier schools, that is because the students aren't demanding more...so how motivated can they be?

beefs · February 5, 2008, 12:37pm

I think the point is that if you accept HES as equivalent to Harvard College degree, then you are discarding every single impressive accomplishment that any random high school student did to get into the College. The question might as well be, "Why does anyone go to Harvard College when they can just go to HES?" 
I think it's all pretty clear for all of us to see "why".

Northstarmom · February 5, 2008, 1:09pm

"so, do you think copmmuter schools are failing? I have been reading about the HES program, and IN THE CLASSES are both types of students....so IF someone wants to engage with "harvard" types, they indeed can"

No, I don't think commuter schools are failing. I think commuter schools do a good job of serving their students, which in most cases means helping those students get a college degree so as to be able to qualify for jobs that require such a degree.

Yes, in HES, there are both types of students. That's probably true of most colleges in the country, even the most noncompetitive ones.

The difference is that at Harvard College, the majority of students are not only extremely bright but also have demonstrated through their accomplishments the internal motivation to be actively involved in an outstanding way in some kind of EC, usually at least 2 different ECs. The students are like that because of H's selection criteria.

According to Harvard's dean of admissions, about 90% of the approximately 22,000 students who applied for admission last year had the grades, scores and coursework to qualify for admission. Those qualifications mean they are extremely bright and academically accomplished people, far above the average for most of the country.

The students who get accepted have to have more than the stats. They need the stats plus some additional exceptional academic accomplishments and usually exceptional accomplishments in 2 different ECs (which could include church, job, community service)-- accomplishment are beyond holding a title such as being local NHS president or student government prez.

Even the students who get into Harvard due to a boost by having parents who were celebrities or wealthy still have to have the stats and some kind of other accomplishments to get in. For instance, one member of my class's father was a head of state. That same class member became herself a head of state. Another's father was a U.S. Senator. She became a lieutenant governor. Another also had a dad with a high political office. She became a state supreme court justice. Sure, having parents in politics must have helped those classmates achieve professionally, but they were active, involved members of the Harvard community as students.

"those that you work with, talk to, play sports with, volunteer with, are all morons who can't carry on deep meaningful conversation"

Not one person has said that unless you've gone to an Ivy, you can't carry on a meaningful conversation.

"Do you not think that a 30 year old who actually worked in the real world, got sued, sued someone, worked for political campaigns etc is somehow less of an asset to class? that a room full of 22 year olds is somehow "better" or more insightful?"

When I went to Harvard, there were students at Harvard and Radcliffe who were parents, had served in the military, had worked for political campaigns, had held jobs, etc. I'm sure that there still are as Harvard is known for doing its best to create a well rounded, diverse class in all meanings of the word.

The difference between the Harvard College and HES experience is that at HES, the overwhelming majority of the learning and peer interaction occurs in class. At the college, the overwhelming amount of learning /peer interaction occurs through ECs. Harvard has hundreds of student-run organizations, many of which are run as well as their professional counterparts. Many students put the time and effort into their ECs that many adult professionals put into their jobs, and they have to rise to the challenge of handling similar situations. Students running community service projects at Phillips Brooks House, for instance, have to write grant proposals, run programs, etc. Students producing the campus's more than 50 student-run theater productions a year are in charge of everything.

Incidentally, I have taught a lot of nontraditional students. Most were people who had, for instance, had kids young or had gotten married young and then had worked very ordinary jobs such as lower level clerical jobs, the type that I worked during summers when I was in college. Some also were people who had spent their young adulthood partying and working whatever jobs would pay the rent.

The plus of most of the nontraditional students whom I taught was that they were extremely serious about their school work. Consequently, their flunk-out rate was low. That placed their level of motivation on par with students at places like Ivies, which have low flunk out rates because they select students who already have demonstrated a high level of motivation for academic success.

In general, the best predictor of college performance is high school academic performance, so colleges that have high numbers of vals, sals and similar students are likely to have high graduation rates.

"And if the classes are Harvard at on par with "second" tier schools, that is because the students aren't demanding more...so how motivated can they be?"

I think that the classes at my S's second tier LAC are run in an excellent way, and reflect what LACs are known for: small classes, professors who love to teach and who establish close, nurturing relationships with students, etc. People who put having such classes at the top of their list of "must haves" for college should go to a LAC because that's the point of a LAC, including the lower tier ones. The flip side is that S says that most students aren't particularly interested in the various guest speakers, nonGreek organizations, etc. that are on his campus. That kind of disinterest wasn't something I encountered in college.

Students whose "must haves" in college would be getting to hear bon mots from many renowned professors (even if those bon mots are in lectures filled with hundreds of students) and having the opportunity to run with one's EC interests while being challenged and inspired by other students who share one's interests would probably best enjoy a place like Harvard.

Bay · February 5, 2008, 1:29pm

I am very surprised that Harvard sanctions the portrayal of its HES grads as graduates of Harvard University. I'm sure there are many unsuspecting employers who think (like I would) that merely by hiring a "Harvard" grad they are getting something rare and special. Yes, that is a lazy man's thinking, but oftentimes employers don't have the time or resources to examine every detail of an applicant's life, and it would be comforting to be able to assume that Harvard already did the initital screening of at least the first two decades of the applicant's life.

limnieng · February 5, 2008, 1:29pm

citygirlsmom

I don't think Northstarmom or ClassicRockerDad or anyone else is trying to put down HES or HES's validity as a rigorous program. Northstarmom was just stating peer influence as a illuminating experience in her Harvard life. ClassicRockerDad was just pointing out that from the employers' point of view, not specifically stating on the resume that you came from HES and not Harvard College is very detrimental to your application.

beefs is right, it is self-deceiving to think that HES is the equivalent to Harvard College on all aspects, and the point is that a lot of employers and others (regardless of what Harvard College allows you to put on your resume) make that distinction as well. To blur that distinction with arguments based on curriculum, classmates profiles etc., or to intentionally omit such distinction on a application, can and will paint an undesirable image for a prospective employer.

As ClassicRockerDad aptly puts it, getting through HES may be impressive in its own right, but its another matter altogether to leave prospective employers with the impression that you came from Harvard College instead of HES. In a nutshell, it's not about whether HES is good or not, its about acknowledging that the community at large do make a distinction between HES and Harvard College (even if its only in the aspect of the selectivity process), and by intentionally blurring that distinction on resumes and interviews is going to be construed as deception.

limnieng · February 5, 2008, 1:50pm

So in response to OP's simple question: No, HES degree does not carry the same weight as a Harvard College degree. Because if you talk about 'carrying weight', you are talking about societal views on the value attached to both degrees, and unfortunately, society do not view these degrees as equivalent.

am01 · February 5, 2008, 3:44pm

"The point is that the students at HES probably differ very little from the students at any nonselective college that has a majority of nontraditional students"

NSM- This is the MOST absurd, ignorant comment I have heard on this board. At least Rocker dad is not putting down the quality of HES education. In the words of Citymom "WOW, JUST WOW!!"

All classes I have taken are live lectures that the GSAS have taken. They are actually sitting in the class while I am watching on line (by the way I will be on campus full time this fall). I take the EXACT SAME EXAM, do the same project and have interacted with many of the "traditional students" on line. Heck even they are less ignorant then you.

How can you sit there and compare HES students to those at a "non selective college". HES is Selective! Obiously NO where near as the Harvard college or GSAS- but in it's own right.

Let's just say this: I have a BS in Applied Math from a tier 1 school in Canada. I also have an MBA in Finance from the Schulich School of Business (York University Toronto Canada - Ranked #1 in Canada and its executive MBA program is #3 IN THE WORLD!) I graduated 3rd in my class. Schulich is regarded as one of the best Business Schools in the WORLD (top 20 in the world).......
.....and even I found it difficult to get through my first HES courses....and I by the way had a very high GMAT score...oh yeah and I have started 2 charities, run a community based womans hockey leage (300 woman) to encouge particaption of woman and sports. I have also interned at the House of Commons (parilment in Ottawa Canada). I'd say I am a HIGH caliber student!

HOW DARE YOU COMPARE ME TO SOMEONE WHO ATTENDS A NON SELECTIVE SCHOOL????

ClassicRockerDad · February 5, 2008, 4:33pm

[quote]
....and even I found it difficult to get through my first HES courses....

[/quote]

I think you need to go a little easier on Northstarmom. I believe that my vantage point is more first hand than Northstarmom's and your impressive array of degrees doesn't surprise me. Like I said, I found the students in my classes to be very impressive. However, when I initially went there I was surprised to find such a high intellectual level because I thought like Northstarmom does, and I had been in other continuing ed classes that were far inferior. In fact, I suspect that even YOU were at least a little surprised by how rigorous it is so why should you expect Northstarmom to know otherwise. I suspect that this incorrect perception is widespread. Just to get you calibrated, I have my bachelor's, masters, and doctorate in EE from MIT. I don't feel like I gave the humanities their fair due in my MIT days and HES gives me a chance to recreationally recoup what I missed out on. However, I can certainly tell quality education when I see it.

IMHO, the only way to improve the reputation of HES is for their graduates to proudly offer their credentials and then deliver the goods and actually be outstanding in their jobs. Many are, and I think word is getting out. Keeping the "Extension" part secret is neither necessary nor wise.

Northstarmom · February 5, 2008, 4:52pm

"The point is that the students at HES probably differ very little from the students at any nonselective college that has a majority of nontraditional students"

NSM- This is the MOST absurd, ignorant comment I have heard on this board. At least Rocker dad is not putting down the quality of HES education. In the words of Citymom "WOW, JUST WOW!!"

All classes I have taken are live lectures that the GSAS have taken. They are actually sitting in the class while I am watching on line (by the way I will be on campus full time this fall). I take the EXACT SAME EXAM, do the same project and have interacted with many of the "traditional students" on line. Heck even they are less ignorant then you."

I will stand by my statement that students at the HES probably differ little from students at other nonselective COLLEGES that have a majority of nontraditional students. I will point out that I referred specifically to "colleges," not graduate schools.

Graduate schools by definition will attract a higher caliber student than will nonselective colleges. Most students at nonselective colleges do not go on to grad school.

Certainly the average graduate student at HES could be expected to be of a higher caliber than would the average nongraduate students at HES.

BTW, the vitrol and screaming that you are using to make your arguments doesn't reflect well on the kind of student who attends HES nor does the fact that you're taking what I say very personally. Clearly, I don't know you, and my statements are referring to the average, not to individuals. In other posts, I have clearly stated that one can find outstanding students at all types of colleges including those that are not competitive.

am01 · February 5, 2008, 4:53pm

RockerDad- i do not agree with everything you have said on this thread (yet I will take some of your advice) however I appreciate the ways in which you present your arguments/discussions.

I am not offended by your comments because your comments are not generalizations of everyone at HES.

I am a grad student there, so ofcourse I am not tryiong to pass myself off as a Harvard college student and although HES IS FAS affliated, I am still not trying to pass myself off as GSAS either. Just a student under the larger umbrella of Harvard University. I have no quams abouyt clarifying my HES status either.

ClassicRockerDad · February 5, 2008, 7:08pm

am01: Thanks and good luck.

Northstarmom - The classes that I've taken typically had a mix of both graduate and undergraduate students. The graduate students had some extra requirements. These were hard classes and with all due respect, I think you're underestimating the capabilities of the undergrads at the Extension school. There is much more emphasis on writing than in most continuing ed programs. There are plenty of other continuing ed programs around town like UMASS Boston that would appeal to those less capable.

am01 · February 6, 2008, 9:42am

NSM- We can agree to disagree.

However to answer the orginal question of the thread, I DO NOT believe that HES holds the same weight as Harvard college, however it is still held in high regard. This is in speaking with Professors at the actual college and even employers (yes the ones that do know what HES is).

Think of it as boxing- it may not be in the same weight class category as the college, but it is the top in its weight class (an no I am not comparing HES to a tier 2 or tier 3 school). What you consider that weight class is, is up to you and how you market this SCHOOL (HES) withen the the FAS FACULTY at HARVARD UNIVERSITY is up to you. DO NOT lie, do what yo think is appropreate in your interview and follow the guidlines set by the university.

Speaking as an individual who attended two top universities (one of which is considered as the "ivy league of Canada") and who has been admitted into programs an Brown and Cornell. I would say HES is a great option.

I have never attempted to apply to Harvard college or GSAS, so I cannot say for sure I would be admitted (although comparing my qualifications/grades/scores to others that attend) I should have a pretty good chance - although who the heck knows with Harvard, some of the "acceptances have been questionable in the past (i.e. my RICH cousin with a B- avg and low SAT score who was admitted).

I am happy with my decision- I encourage those that are looking to attend HES, to ignore those comments made by individuals who generalize the students there- some of which unfortunately are educators at higher learning institutions.

I hope you do not think I am being boa****l on this thread. No one here knows me. I just obviously felt the need to defend my position and back it up with my credentials.

Northstarmom · February 6, 2008, 9:58am

" have never attempted to apply to Harvard college or GSAS, so I cannot say for sure I would be admitted (although comparing my qualifications/grades/scores to others that attend) I should have a pretty good chance - although who the heck knows with Harvard, some of the "acceptances have been questionable in the past (i.e. my RICH cousin with a B- avg and low SAT score who was admitted)."

Does GSAS not have good financial aid or fellowships? Curious since Harvard's endowment is so big, and undergrad scholarships now are so generous.

am01 · February 6, 2008, 11:39am

I just meant that my own cousin was mysteriously admitted to the History program at Harvard, with those qualifications. Her dad is VP (Operations) of a fortune 500 company and is "in" with the right people (which I won’t mention here). My cousin herself didn't want to go to Harvard, but was pressured by her father. She even admits that she was far less qualified then many that were rejected..... Her family & friends are still scratching our heads over this one.

I am not saying that Harvard is not generous to those that are admitted but cannot afford tuition. My friend (well more an aquitence) was admitted to Harvard and was given a generous sum of money. I am just saying that there still are many shady acceptances among the Ivy League- including Harvard.

I am still not suggesting I would or would not have gotten in. I'm saying I think I would have had a good shot (I think), but with cynicism I am simply saying, who knows?

Bay · February 6, 2008, 4:15pm

[quote]
Her dad is VP (Operations) of a fortune 500 company and is "in" with the right people (which I won’t mention here).

[/quote]

No offense to your uncle, but a VP Operations is unlikely to get into the local Rotary Club let alone get admission for his offspring into Harvard. (There are at least 500 of them afterall, not to mention the Chairmen, CEOs, CFOs, COOs and other myriad VPs at those companies.) What sort are the "right people" that you are referring to? You don't have to mention names, I'm just curious who you think might be able to get a student admission into Harvard. Was your uncle a major donor to Harvard? Is there really nothing special about your cousin that might have helped her admission? Looking at Harvard's published admission stats, I agree that it is pretty hard to believe she would get in with a 3.0 and low SAT scores. Just how low were they?

Also, what do you mean by admission to the "history program at Harvard?" Are you just referring to an undergraduate History concentration? I don't think that requires any special qualifications, does it?