<p>I still don’t get the part where your wife knows all about this but you don’t know what your daughter thinks because she was asleep when you got home. Did she see her mail or not? Apparently not since you might not even tell her about it. Let your daughter open her own mail and tell your wife to stop re-planning the kid’s life without even discussing it with her. Honestly the bouncing from bribes to whatever is disgusting! I can understand getting excited and wanting to do some research. But you should realize now that this college isn’t worth the paper the offer letter was written on. If you need something “in the middle” that would be understandable. But to send a girl with those amazing scores to a school with those pathetic stats… it makes no sense what-so-ever! This college, whoever they are, needs your daughter to bring up their reputation. She doesn’t need them.</p>
<p>The SAT is scaled so the average score for each section is right around 500. For 2011 college-bound seniors nationally, the mean CR score was 497 and the mean M score was 514, i.e., right around 1000 CR+M. </p>
<p>If the middle 50% SAT CR+M scores at the school in question are in the 800-1000 range, that means 3/4 of the students at this school are below-average for all SAT test-takers. Fully 1/4 will be well below average; 800 CR+M is the 16th percentile for all SAT-takers. And of the 1/4 who are above-average, many–probably most–will be just barely above average.</p>
<p>I’m glad there are schools for academically below-average kids, but I wouldn’t put my high-stats kid into that environment. (Not that she’d go even if I tried to make her–or bribe her). I think she’d be bored, not intellectually stimulated, not academically challenged, not motivated to get everything out of it she could, quite possibly socially isolated (or at least not hanging with people she considered her intellectual peers). I don’t think she’d last a year, and if she did stick it out, I think she’d come out of it with a lesser education than she’d get at a more selective private or a top public flagship like UVA. So to me, the dollar savings aren’t worth the trade-off. Anyway, our D1 could get a better education living at home and commuting to our state flagship which has its own issues but also has some sterling intellectual assets and is big enough and diverse enough that D1 could easily find her niche with similarly academically talented and highly motivated peers. To me I guess that’s the biggest concern: who will the kid’s peer group be? At a small school of mostly below-average (for college work) students, will there really be a peer group? And if not, how will she respond?</p>
<p>But that’s me. I know what I’m willing to pay to get my kids a quality college education and a quality college experience (a lot!), and what I’m capable of paying (well, that’s quite a lot, too, fortunately, not without some discomfort sometimes, but we can do it). I don’t know anything about the OP’s financial situation or what other demands there are on those resources, so I wouldn’t be judgmental about the decisions others make in this circumstance.</p>
<p>Cortana – </p>
<p>As others have said, almost any large state school will get enought smart, hard working kids to keep your kid company</p>
<p>SUNY Buffalo grants PhDs, has some wellrespected grad/prof schools. It does not seem close to what OP is talking about</p>
<p>SUNY Buffs stats --</p>
<p>SAT Critical Reading: 500 - 610<br>
SAT Math: 550 - 650 </p>
<p>So at least 25% of the kids should be able to keep up.</p>
<p>The school sounds like a poor fit intellectually for your daughter. One of my kids participated in a competitive summer program where the students had a lot of interaction with notable figures. Her takeaway was that the best part of the experience was the interaction she shared with her fellow students. I don’t see how your daughter can get that kind of experience at a school with average SAT scores of 900.</p>
<p>SUNY Buffalo’s SAT median scores are higher than the school the OP mentioned. It’s not comparable.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I’m quoting Haystack again because this is so true. There is a tradeoff between cost and quality in many cases. A merit scholarship is of little value in the long run unless it gets you something that is meritorious–an opportunity for a decently rigorous and respected education.</p>
<p>I agree with Haystack.</p>
<p>Yeah, but you have to be careful with anecdotal evidence. We had an office assistant who couldn’t get a job with her degree from state flagship, used tution remission to get a second degree in accounting at this no-name LAC, passed the CPA exams, and then started a career as an accountant. See, it can work both ways.</p>
<p>Just read pages 1 and 6 - I would not pick this school. Son’s school is third-tier and has better stats than this one.</p>
<p>I took two courses at a local university with those stats and the courses were very easy - to the point that I didn’t want our kids taking courses there when they were high-school age.</p>
<p>I am sorry to ask this but I don’t understand 2nd tier. I graduated from Kent State…would that be 2nd tier?</p>
<p>I did nursing and I feel like I received a great education. I think it depends on your major? If I wanted to major in English or heavy writing major than I think a strong lac would be better. I am basing this on my family members who graduated from College of Wooster with majors in English, history and theater. My uncle is a teacher who graduated from Bowling Green, probably a tier 2 but great for education majors.</p>
<p>If she had taken the accting degree at the state flagship she’d probably could have done the same with a better firm.</p>
<p>Two perspectives here.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Parent of kid who chose to attend the lower ranked school with the full scholarship. Her major program is much more rigorous than the rest of the college, and her interactions with the “general population” have reflected that. She’s no intellectual snob, but has been wide-eyed at times about the lack of vocabulary and general knowledge of others in her distribution requirement classes. Since she’s not a big partier, she’s also had a rocky time finding a social group to hang out with. (She stays because of the high quality of her major and because now we’ll have the money to fund her graduate education. Why go into debt to become a viola player?? 
)</p></li>
<li><p>I teach at one of those directional lower tier publics. I’ve been appalled on occasion when I look up a student’s SAT scores (don’t you get 200 points just for filling in your name correctly?). But we also have many very intelligent students whose families simply can’t afford even the state flagship, there’s an honors program, we also have amazing students (some of them vets) who transfer from community colleges because they can’t even afford our modest tuition.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>I work with people who have Ivy-pedigree degrees, and we pounce on the good students. We mentor them, we offer them research opportunities, we prep them for professional success. (We see ourselves as the poor man’s LAC.) I know all of my students’ names (OK, there are two girls in my 10:00 who look alike and I’m still working on that!) and I DEFINITELY know all the names of those in the honor society for our major. This week alone I’ve written four personalized recommendations for grad school application. </p>
<p>HOWEVER, I also see my other D’s work at the more prestigious LAC she attends, and I’m very impressed. With the exception of an annoying bureaucratic snag, I feel that she’s had a much stronger intellectual experience. Will she get work? I certainly hope so, but I have to say that my lower tier students have better career services support. She can deconstruct the heck out of anything, but they haven’t taught her Thing 1 about the real world.</p>
<p>The school in question is private. It is not a lower tier public or CC where you would find many very good students there for financial (or perhaps location) reasons.</p>
<p>If it’s a private school, I’d apply this test: if it’s normally ranked in “Top 100” Forbes, USWN, or Barron’s, then it’s “1st tier”. If it’s not on the 1st tier list, but still included in Princeton Review and Fiskes, then it makes “2nd tier” list, and still a good quality school. If it’s not in PR or Fiske, then proceed carefully, because you’re in 3rd and 4th tier territory. There are many such colleges, and probably an ok choice for a student w/limited choices, limited HS achievement, and ordinary common career path goals (wto be a nurse, an elementary school teacher, an office worker, a salesman, etc.). Not begrudging these students or schools, but you need to evaluate the schools with your eyes WIDE OPEN. We’ve two of these type of colleges in our community, and the students aren’t particularly academically-focussed, intellectually stimulated, or groomed for ambitious career and/or graduate school paths. I don’t think the savings will translate to a happy college experience for your daughter.</p>
<p>Regarding car bribe. My parents refused to allow me to attend my 1st choice “Top 10” university after I was accepted, because I quote: “too much money to spend on a daughter”. (Parents refused to do FAFSA; money wasn’t issue.) I received consolation prize car for graduation and was compelled to commute daily six days a week to a far less academic commuter university 1+ hours highway-driving away. Two hours minimum round-trip each day, plus a major w/extreme workload. I lasted two years, and then demanded to at least live on campus after being followed home one night to my parents’ driveway by a drunk, and having spent too many nights driving home past midnight. Enough of my story. But note that I’ve never forgotten (nor forgiven) my parents’ shortsightedness. My fellow students were not academically-focussed, anti-intellectual, and often big partiers. I was a fish out of water.</p>
<p>If you have two pre-paid tuition plans, maybe consider using them on your daughters and take out student loans for your son. As a transfer student at Tech, he’ll have to live off-campus, so maybe you can swing those expenses on a monthly basis or he’ll be able to find a part-time job to help with that.</p>
<p>I can understand wanting to mull it over with an offer coming in out of the blue like that, but with the details you’ve given, it doesn’t sound like a good choice for your daughter. Let us know what she thinks when she sees it.</p>
<p>
When US News and World Report first put together their rankings they divided schools into four tiers. If I remember correctly the first tier was the top 100, but it might have been 50. It was pretty silly and there were so many excellent schools in the second tier that they now combine the first and second tiers. They stop numbering after about 200. There’s also the question of whether #20 on the LAC list is equivalent to #20 on the research university list or the Masters university list. (Answer it’s like asking how many angels dance on the head of a pin.) Kent State ties for 194 with a bunch of schools which I think puts it in Tier 2. :)</p>
<p>Tier 2 is pretty good. The college the OP is talking about does not sound like Tier 2 to me. It sounds lower than that. Especially since it is small.</p>
<p>My two sons go to California State University Sacramento (Sac State) which is described in past editions of USNWR as a third tier school. The 25% to 75% SAT scores for CR+M for 2010 were 840-1080 and it has a six year graduation rate of 42%. Looking more carefully at the statistics I found the lowest accepted applicant had an 800 and the highest accepted applicant who decided to attend Sac State had a 1430. Both of my sons only took the SAT once, in March of their junior year in HS, and refused to study for it and would not take it again as seniors. The older one had a CR+M score of 1260 and younger one had a 1380, including a 720 in Math.</p>
<p>They ended up at Sac State rather than a UC because they were hopeless and complete slackers in HS, barely managing to get 3.0 GPAs. For them going to a low selectivity directional state university has actually turned out to be a fairly good thing. My older son is now a second semester junior majoring in Geology and minoring in Physics and is really taking academics much more seriously than he ever has before. He had to take all the same Calculus, Physics and Chemistry courses as Engineering majors and these were fairly challenging to him at first as a student who had no idea how to succeed in school in classes with some pretty capable Engineering majors. He breezed through his GE courses. If he had gone to a school with students who are his intellectual peers he would not have lasted long enough to acquire the motivation and study skills to survive. My younger son is majoring in Physics and is in his second semester of Freshman year and although he still was not as motivated as I would have liked and at times clearly did no studying at all he managed still managed a 3.47 GPA for the Fall semester which is better than he ever did in HS and is taking school more seriously all the time. Again, I doubt he would have survived one semester at a school where the average student had a 1,380/1600 on the SAT. There are about 25,000 students at Sac State so even if only 5% have SAT scores over 1,300/1,600 there are about 1,000 other students who are his peers in cognitive ability.</p>
<p>This, however, is not the situation facing the OP. Not only does his daughter have high SAT scores she also appears to be highly motivated as evidenced by her high GPA. She does not need to be eased into college until she achieves the motivation and study skills to survive like my sons did, she would probably feel stifled, particularly at a school with low average SAT scores and such a small student body. It is unlikely there would be even a handful of students there she would find intellectually stimulating and at her level.</p>
<p>I’m dying to know what school it is. Those scores seem very low, I always thought US News divided tiers by every 50. An example of an excellent school that feel into tier three would have been NC State, which is amazing for engineering. So the tiering system is silly everyone admits. It all about fit. If you read reviews on many of the other sites you can usually get a feel for rigor, atmosphere etc.</p>
<p>For me its been very much about finances. I laid it out to our son his sophmore year. He missed NMSF by like 5 points. sigh. Thats off topic. But yes I think the bribing would not be a smart idea. The better school, with a chance of making connections with your professor and having an excellent time (4 years) seems to be the best bet. But you have to balance costs with good school. I mean you don’t want to spend the farm, but you don’t want to send them to a high school disguised as a college.</p>
<p>It looks to me like the OP and his DW need to sit down together and talk about the money issue. Two pre-paid plans, three kids, and the only way to avoid raiding the retirement fund is if the kids get scholarships? What about the kids getting jobs? What about someone taking loans? What about requiring two years of CC for everyone?</p>
<p>This family has options. Perhaps the first one they need to think about is a gap year for D1 while OP and DW get their financial act together.</p>
<p>The site called collegedata, which I guess I’m allowed to say out loud on CC, is a good place to go if you want to see how many kids there are at certain levels of achievement (grades and test scores) at any given school. This site basically aggregates information from schools’ common data sets. I’ve found it a very useful resource for getting a sense of what the intellectual environment might be like at any given school. Obviously, numbers don’t tell the whole story, but if, say, 50 percent of the kids fall in the ACT 18-23 range and only 2 percent are above 30, that gives you some data to assess the likelihood, even if there is an honors program, that an academically talented child is going to find a peer group. FWIW.</p>