<p>Yes, but no one had to look at a thank you note sent to "a person connected with her reach school". (an alum?) The report on an interview (if there was a report at all) could have been written before the thankyou note, not reported on the report, not read in the admissions office, or not considered part of the deliberations.</p>
<p>Marite's #34 should be on a cast bronze plaque somewhere.</p>
<p>D2 has always wanted to go to a very popular college in our area (BC). We have always gone to football and hockey games and she always dreamed of being a student there. She also knew how competitive it was for kids from the Boston area and she honestly did not think she would be accepted. Her Dad and I also thought it was a true reach for her (she did have the grades, but they were on the low side for BC), but our attitude was that if she didn't apply, she would never know. She sent in her application with the feeling that maybe she had wasted the application fee. Imagine her surprise (and delight) when the acceptance came last year. There were many students from her high school who were rejected, but somehow she managed to get herself accepted. Then, after finally getting the acceptance, she spent the next few weeks wondering if she was worthy of the school. After several sleepless nights, a few tears and several pro/con lists, she decided to go. We were very excited for her, but understood her concerns. She needs to work very hard to get good grades. It would not be a cake walk. Well, guess what? We just brought her home a few weeks ago after finishing her 1st year and there were tears again, but this time the tears were because she truly did not want to leave BC. She had had a wonderful freshman year. She had made many new friends (our shy, quiet daughter had truly reinvented herself), became involved in many worthwhile organizations, rarely left the campus because there was so much to do there and even made dean's list for one semester and missed it the second semester by a few hundredths of a point. She said she quickly learned that while there were many students who could party all night and then squeeze out an A on a paper or test, she knew she was not one of them and truly had to study more than others. Yes, BC was a true reach for her, but I am just so proud of how she has risen to the challenge. Our daughter proved to herself that she truly did belong.</p>
<p>Dogwood, thank you so much for your daughter's story! She sets a standard that all college students should rise to! Well done!</p>
<p>Dogwood:</p>
<p>Kudoes from me, too! Your D rose to the challenge beautifully.</p>
<p>Dogwood, your D's story is an inspiration for other students.</p>
<p>MrsP: Yes I think her music EC helped but I can only speculate at the factors that may have helped her admission:
1. EC's
My D submitted a separate 3-page resume/activities list. The list was heavily music, sports and community service items. Almost all were out of school activities.
2. Recommendations
We did not see these, but were told that one was exceptional and really captured my D's personality and character.
3. Essays
I thought her common app essay was overworked and bland, but her short answer and supplementary essays did reflect her personality, drive and interests.
4. GPA/Rank
My D's junior and senior grades were very good. She submitted an explanation of some health and other issues which affected her sophomore year grades.
5. SAT's
My D only took these once. I have no idea if this was of any importance, but my D was doing enough things that she had no time (or interest) in studying and retaking SATs.
6. Interviews
I have no idea if these were important. My D would provide no feedback. She is perfectly capable of either sitting like a lump or really opening up.</p>
<p>Sometimes I think I understand some things about the admission process. Sometimes I think I am just guessing. I suspect my D was accepted based on the total picture. Certainly it was not just academic stats. Maybe the adcoms were just confused and made a mistake. </p>
<p>By the way D got her 2nd semester grades this afternoon. They were A's and B's but with one C-. I am not too concerned. The C- was in an honors math class. I found out months ago she was in honors math. I asked how she managed to qualify and she told me she just signed up and by the time administration figured it out, it was too late and they let her continue. Some kids just have to challenge themselves. Sometimes it can be hard for a parent to watch and still not offer unwelcome input.</p>
<p>I understand what Himom was saying. I also have a son who tends toward "easy-going" and is not quite as internally driven as some kids I see here. He is at his super-reach school, and it's the best place for him. His second choice school is a wonderful place (and his parents' alma mater). he would have been in the Honors program there, and would have been surrounded by students every bit as capable as the ones he's with. However, the school is a Big Ten sports school, and has a thousand other distractions, too. It would have been easier for him there to decide to aim at an easier level. </p>
<p>Where he is, he has to work to keep his head above water, not because he's not as bright as the other students, but because he clearly doesn't have the academic background most do. He's probably in the middle of the class, not at the top like in hs, but so what? He's challenged, he's discovering what he is capable of, and he's building new brain muscles every day. It's definitely been a positive growth experience for him. Most likely, the other school would've been too, but my H and I both agree it could have gone either way for him there.</p>
<p>My son has a solid academic background but tends to get "lazy" if he's around too many "slackers." At the school where he will be matriculating, everyone works hard & he will rise to the challenge as he always does when he's around very motivated folks. He's more than capable & really enjoys the stimulation of being around engaged people. This is why we believe the school he has chosen is a great "fit" for him--the school agrees & has given him a lot of money, renewable for 4 years.
One of the schools he turned down would have offered him a full-ride, but he didn't think the environment would stimulate him in the same way the school he has selected will. From all we understand about the schools, we agree.
We're excited & happy for him about the school were he will be starting in just a few months.</p>
<p>This is a very good question MrsP with no black and white answer. However, because most posters advocate attending a reach for many good reasons, I will post a contrarian view based on the first hand experience of our son who just finished soph yr at Rensselaer which was a very solid match for him during admissions.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Stress. If a student in the bottom half of the admissions pool is fortunate enough to be admitted, he may find himself in a stressful situation attempting to excel academically. I have had a few conversations with parents who boast that their student is up until 1am every evening studying. If this is indeed the case and the student is putting in 15 hrs per day on academics(unlikely, I know), something is probably amiss. Seventy five hour workweeks are not sustainable emotionally and they certainly will warp a normal college experience.</p></li>
<li><p>Merit aid. Our son is getting $25,000/yr vs $0 offered by the most selective colleges. I know that money is not everything, but for a family whose efc was $80k+, this is quite nice,</p></li>
</ol>
<p>3.Special academic opportunities. Many colleges have academic opportunities available to only its best students, opportunities such as department honoraries, participation is department colloquia, honors colleges, special degree programs, accelerated programs. Our son is in a unique dual cogsci/compsci program geared toward AI. He is on track to be begin an accelerated dual BS-MS in his 7th semester, participates in a cogsci grad/undergrad seminar which meets biweekly, and was recently inducted into the compsci honorary Upsilon Pi Epsilon as a soph with junior standing.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Faculty mentoring. While we love to provide individual mentoring for individual undergraduate students, our time is very limited and we can be available in this manner for only our best students. Mentoring can take several forms-independent study, undergrad research, participation in on-going research/projects. After summer session, our son will stay in Troy to work on one of his profs OS programming projects.</p></li>
<li><p>The academic plan. This is something often overlooked. Many student in the lower cohorts academically develop a academic plan based on a desire to maximize gpa and class standing. This is one reason why students use college faculty assessments and sites like Rate my Professor so frequently. This is not the way to develop an academic plan! As an undergraduate advisor, during the first semester I ask students to identify areas of particular academic interest to them and by the end of freshman year I encourage them put together a four year academic plan which takes into consideration the entire course catalogue and culminates in coursework preparing them for meaningful senior thesis research. Third semester our son enrolled in a very challenging symbolic logic HSS elective at the suggestion of his advisor and because it used coursework tools developed in the cogsci department's RAIR Lab. His academic plan also has him taking a compsci course in LISP and a EECompE course in fuzzy sets and expert systems in prep for his senior thesis. Because he is doing so well he views the entire course catalogue as his cookie jar.</p></li>
<li><p>Grad school, professional school and that plum post grad job. Merely graduating from the most selective colleges do not guarantee that a student will be in line to get one of those IB jobs or be accepted to the upper eschelon grad and professional school. You need to be at the top of the class too. For instance 95% of admittees to the Yale Law School had gpa's of 3.5+ and 80+% had gpa's of 3.75+. Because our son is on track to graduate with a 3.75+ gpa(where the institute average is 3.04), is suspect he is in a far better position to gain entry into one of the better graduate schools vs attending a more selective university and graduating in the middle of the pack, though this consideration is moot because he is itching to move on a "real job".</p></li>
</ol>
<p>MrsP, I hope the experience of our son shows you some of the benefits for students electing to attend solid academic matches. He has had just a wonderful 2 years at RPI and has never second guessed his decision.</p>
<p>originaloog, he's kicking butt and taking names. What a great 2 years!</p>
<p>O: great summary!</p>
<p>Dogwood
Great post!</p>
<p>originaloog, that is the kind of information I'm looking for. I am not familiar with your background. What is your position at the school? Is that the same university that your son attends? Your information is very useful to me because you have two perspectives, your son's and your job experience.</p>
<p>One more thing about graduate admissions. Undergrad research and recommendations are very important for admission into the better departments. To the extent that an undergrad student is able to distinguish himself early on can help tremendously in both regards. The ability to develop a close mentoring relationship with a professor is always helpful in doing quality research. This is why some of the best university research come out of research groups. It a very collaborative process.</p>
<p>Faculty recommendations are far different from most hs teacher recommendations. We often know the faculty at other universities so our recommendation need to be honest assessment of an individual students potential. If I were to exaggerate a student's abilities to give him an edge in grad school admissions, I immediately lose credibility with a colleague and compromise the admission prospects of future students. Let me assure you, I have never let that happen. Faculty and universities invest too much time and money in its graduate students too compromise the objective evaluation of prospective candidates.</p>
<p>Cur-thanks for the comments. While we thought he would do well at "The Tute" we did not imagine that he would do this well. He is a far different student now than he was two years ago. And encourage your DD to look upon Rhode's course catalogue as her personal cookie jar!</p>
<p>MrsP I have been a tenured professor of engineering for many years on the verge of entering the emeritus ranks. My wife is an alum of Rensselaer, thus the familial connection with that university. I have seen thousands of students come and go with varying degrees of success which is one reason I am more cautious than most about blindly encouraging every student to attend reach colleges. For some it is a great choice while attending an academically solid match is a great choice for others.</p>
<p>And I suspect that blind luck plays into the final result. I don't think either he nor we knew he would be as accomplished in understanding the abstractions of computer science as he seems to be. And he was fortunate indeed to find two professors early on who got him fired up about both the philosophy of the mind and the concept of computer cognition.</p>
<p>One thing is certain. There is no right answer to your question. Good luck and feel free to pm me any time.</p>
<p>originaloog, I've watched friends' children go through college. I've seen just what you described happen to boys who were not stellar students in high school. From what I've obseved, your son's experience may not be that unusual for boys, who tend to come into their own later, especially the late bloomers. That is why I'm so insistent on finding the right fit for my son. I'm not sure he would know what that is right now. That's why I'm spending so much time helping him with the initial research. Our goal is that he can figure it out by the time he has to choose a school next spring.</p>
<p>I think it' s a mistake to assume that students that are at or below the average "stats" of any school will not succeed. This week the New York TImes had an article( "In search of Standouts who may not Standout enough) about a program that aims to place average students from NYC (mostly minority, but some economically disadvantaged too, I think) in colleges. It's called posse, and these are students who otherwise would have been overlooked by admissions committees, mostly because of low SAT scores. These students end up doing relatively well in college - 90% graduate within 5 years and 50% get a B avg or above. The article focused on Lafayette, but other colleges participate. I think everyone knows a val or other highly qualified student who failed out of college. I think the reverse probably happens just as frequently. How do we know that a student with 1200 SAT (math + verbal) couldn't be successful at an ivy or that any student could be successful at his reach? I think it's possible</p>
<p>prefect, you don't know who will be successful at which schools. You can only estimate based on fit and drive. Students who work hard have a higher chance of being successful. Those who are overwhelmed might not. We're trying to look at the whole picture and match needs with what is offered. It's hard to tell by looking at the school websites. Even a campus visit might not give you enough information.</p>
<p>Thank you quiltguru, marite, MrsP and jpro for your kind words. D2, being the 3rd child has always been in the shadows of her older siblings. D1 was a very good student and a super athlete. S was a very good athlete and super student, so D2 has always seemed to be trying to find herself, to be her own person, not someone else's sister. While some would not consider BC a reach, it was definitely one for her and choosing BC has really helped her identify her strengths. She has totally bought into the Jesuit ideals of community service and sharing your talents with others less fortunate, and by doing that, she has staked out her own special niche. It has helped her stay organized and has helped her prioritize day to day. She has really learned to advocate for herself and will seek out professors when she needs extra help or guidance. My husband and I really do feel that BC is overpriced, but after seeing the growth in our daughter, we feel it was just about the best investment we have ever made. Choosing your reach might not always be the best choice, but it did work out for our daughter.</p>