Question about "reach schools"

Parents Forum
1

<p>My husband and I were having a discussion about helping our son develop his list of reach schools and after talking for awhile we came to a very obvious question. There may be a very reasonable answer to it but at this moment we cannot figure it out. </p>

<p>If a student has x,y,and z stats and fits well with a,b,and c schools why would that child even consider trying to get into a 'reach' school that may well be over their head where they may become basically "trapped" at that school with fair to poor grades, too low to transfer or get accepted into grad school? If a child gets in to a reach school, do they typically 'figure it out' and do well or is there some other criteria that students and parents use to put together a possible reach list.</p>

<p>We can see having likely admit schools and even match schools but wonder about reach ones. We are all for doing this but worry that it could backfire
(if son got accepted and he couldn't keep up). We also understand it is always good to reach for the stars and we have always told our son to "go for it" but still have this question lurking.</p>

<p>Anyone with some good insight?</p>

2

<p>RR, there was a very recent very extended discussion of this issue on this board. Take a look at that, and then maybe you will have more comments or questions on this issue.</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=63841%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=63841&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>A "reach" school might be hard to get into, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are more difficult academically than less selective schools. In fact, I would think more selective schools might actually be less academically difficult, both due to the rampant grade inflation in many schools as well as the personal attention available at many smaller, "reach" schools.</p>

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<p>Thank you very much for the info.....</p>

5

<p>Peer pressure!!</p>

<p>Kids who go to a mediocre school, where the other students are not motivated and party a lot are likely to behave the same way. Going to a more selective school with other students who are high academic achievers and with a more stimulating intellectual environment may bring out that student's best. I know my D goofs off and is easily bored unless there is a challenge.</p>

6

<p>
[quote]
Kids who go to a mediocre school, where the other students are not motivated and party a lot are likely to behave the same way.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Unfortunately, there is no correlation between "better" colleges and "less partying". If anything, the opposite may be just as likely. The surveyed binge drinking rates at some of the fanciest colleges rivals that at the more notorious "party schools". For example, there are several prestigious New England schools with the same binge drinking rate as Florida State. </p>

<p>Going back to the original question: I think a strong argument can be made that it doesn't make much sense to apply to extreme reach schools.</p>

7

<p>In addition to Mackinaw's suggestion, you might want to check out Momrath's "This year's safeties" thread, which also deals with the confusingly fluid nomenclature of "reach, match, safety."
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=76340%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=76340&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I think that when most people speak of a "reach" school, they're not talking about one that's over their head academically, but rather one that is just very difficult to get into, due to selectivity and popularity. You can be a perfect match for a school, and vice-versa, but it can still be statistically a "reach"....for anyone. Which is not to say that there aren't schools academically too demanding for many students--there are--but I think the admissions process tends to organize things appropriately in that area, for the most part.</p>

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<p>I think there are two types of reach schools: one--where the student's stats are in the lower percentage of accepted students, and two, where the students stats are well within or even at the higher end of accepted students, but because of the vast number of applicants, there is still a very low chance of acceptance. In the first case, there may be a risk of a student getting in over his/her head, or feeling undue pressure, and that's something to consider before applying. In the second case, one would expect the student to do fine...its just that the reality of admissions makes some schools a reach for just about everybody.</p>

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<p>Two posts written at the same time that say essentially the same thing!</p>

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<p>My D would disagree. We did not push her. She wanted to go to the best school possible and has the confidence she would do well with the challenge. I understand what you mean about partying. Certainly Dartmouth has a reputation for big time alcohol abuse, but alcohol and drugs are everywhere and every school has a different party/social culture.</p>

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<p>Rubyred, I have to say that the same thought is going through my mind. My d. is one of those very bright kids who gets A's in school without too much effort and has a very active social life. She keeps up in school and is reasonably interested in her studies... but not really the type to get passionately involved with a subject. She is definitely a joiner - I was going over her list of school activities with her and I was amazed at the number of things she had joined and participated in during high school that I was totally unaware of. </p>

<p>And what is her reach school? Among others.. University of Chicago. "Where fun goes to die". I'd love for her to get in. I would love for her to have the challenge, the exposure to "the life of the mind" - and I'd certainly be a proud mama next spring telling everyone my brilliant daughter was off to U of C. But would she be <em>happy</em> there? This is not the kind of kid who relishes hitting the books on a Saturday night. I think back to my own undergraduate days on a UC campus -- and what I really remember, very fondly, was all the activities outside of class that I had plenty of time for, and the many different classes I could take and explore "for fun". I can fantasize right along with my d... but when it comes down to it, I don't see her as the Chicago "type." Then again, my son now seems to have found his niche in life in a career that is about as far against "type" as I can imagine... young people do change as they grow.</p>

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<p>I think at some point you have to trust that the adcoms know what they are doing. If they pick your son, it is 95% likely that he can do the work. And, oddly enough, it is often the well-endowed schools that offer the most help - once they've accepted you, they have a stake in your succeeding! Retention rate is a BIG thing to them. Grade inflation at the prestigious privates is no accident. </p>

<p>Remember that 50% of Swarthmore and Yale students will finish in the BOTTOM HALF of their classes! That's right - the bottom half! Ooooh! Most of them will go on to have perfectly fine lives, even those who are the dregs! ;) (I have memories of an acquaintance of mine at Williams whose father was an international banker; about all he could do was kick a soccer ball. There frankly wasn't a lot of there, there. The school made it work. Today the interest on his checking account is probably more than my annual income, and what he spends on wine each year is probably double that!) </p>

<p>Then there are the late blossomers too, though it is more common among young women. Without enough challenge in front of him, he'll never know...but I'd add that it doesn't necessarily follow that the reach schools are going to be more challenging -- for him.</p>

<p>Anyhow, trust the process. The "reach" schools are not necessarily better schools for your son. For my younger one, there isn't an Ivy that would rank in the top 50 (no decent Div. I gymnastics team - she would simply not feel challenged.) </p>

<p>He should find a place that he will feel comfortable, yet challenged at the same time. For virtually every kid, there's probably three dozen schools that fit the bill, and maybe more.</p>

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<p>The bottom half can still be pretty high given that about 90% of Harvard students graduate with honors.</p>

<p>My nephew who graduated with a nearly straight A average from one of the top Ivy's, told me that in retrospect he felt his four years of high school were more difficult and challenging than his pre-med curriculum in college.</p>

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<p>then again an aquaintance who is a neurologist and professor at a top medical school told us that his undergraduate education was much more difficult than medical school.
My daughter who attends that college, had it as an academic reach. It wasn't jsut a reach to be admitted, but it is a reach to keep up. She has to work very very hard, as does virtually everyone at that school.
Some schools do work to support students to graduation- getting in is the hard part. But other schools are just as challenging as they were to get in. Like marriage, the work doesn't stop once you say I do.
Not to say other schools are for slackers, although I do question the schools citing science majors when they lump pysch degrees in with physics, hardly the same thing. But some schools have little to no grade inflation, aren't frankly concerned as much as some with their retention rate if it means they lower their standards.
My daughter chose a school that did things the hard way just because they could, and to tell the truth I don't think that is necessary and I wish I really understood the extent of it before we made our decision.</p>

<p>I must add I guess- that while it was a reach for her- by that I mean she was below their numbers a tad- she loves it and has not considered transferring even when she had to take a year off. I am the one who doesn't think it needs to be so difficult, she thinks it is fine.</p>

15

<p>emeraldkity4: That reminds me of a story. When I was in grad school I took a course in comparative neuroanatomy. I mentioned to the TA that I was surprised the course enrollment wasn't larger given that it was cross-listed with the medical school. He said no-longer, the med school was now giving its own neuroanatomy course. I asked, why. He looked at me shaking his head and said that the medical students complained that this course was too hard!</p>

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<p>Rubyred, This is something that my son (and consequently I) struggled with when he was deciding whether or to apply ED to an academically demanding school. [For purposes of this discussion, I'm considering this reach an intellectual or academic reach, which could be a highly selective school like HYPAWS or a comparatively medium selective but very rigorous school like Wellesley, Reed or Chicago. Or any school that the student worries about being too "hard."]</p>

<p>To cut to the outcome, my son has just finished his second year at Williams and has NEVER regretted the extra push he gave himself. Being around kids who are extremely smart, driven, articulate, confident has been a mind-expanding experience. Ideas are constantly ricocheting around his brain. And as a parent this intellectual growth and personal achievement has been wonderful to observe.</p>

<p>First, the adcoms have a pretty good idea of who will succeed. Generally, if they admit a student, they want to keep her/him and s/he, in theory CAN do the work. LACs especially have well developed support systems -- both official like reading centers and unofficial like peer support -- to help kids get over stressful times. The faculty are accessible and nurturing. They recognize that kids are under a lot pressure internal and external, and do what they can to help kids get through difficult assignments. This may or may not be true at larger schools and research universities. I think it's variable.</p>

<p>The second point is whether or not the student WANTS to do the work. There are (and I know this is a ridiculously simplistic statement) two kinds of students who are at risk at academic reaches -- the extremely smart kid who likes to cruise and the moderately smart kid who likes to grind. They can both do the work but the former may not like the energy demands and the latter may not like the competition. </p>

<p>My son, being a selective slacker, worried about being buried under mountains of work and contemplated choosing a less demanding school where he could slough off a bit. What's actually happened is that although there have been moments of avalanche which he's barely managed to dig himself out of, for the most part the workload has been manageable, increasingly so as the semesters unfold. </p>

<p>The important issue I think is to define manageable. Again, it depends a lot on the individual kid's (and his/her family's) expectation. If the goal is straight A's or bust -- because of graduate school aspirations or just because of internal demons -- then s/he might be better off in a less demanding environment. The kid who expects to get straight A's at Swarthmore is going to implode. If, on the other hand, the student is satisfied with a solid B average with some A's and, God forbid, an occasional C, then s/he'll mostly likely do okay at the toughest school, provided that s/he puts in a normal amount of work and takes advantage of the help offered. Also, at Williams, and I think at other schools with similar environments, kids are encouraged to balance academic stress with social events and extracurricular activities which helps puts academic achievement into a manageable perspective.</p>

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<p>I agree with previous posters that it isn't just about the so-called selectivity of a school that can make it a very pressured place, but how the school is known to be with regard to workload, grades, etc. For example, it is often stated that among the ivys, Cornell, while perhaps easier to get into, is the hardest to stay in. I've spoken to many kids and parents (its a popular destination around here) that say that the workload and competitive feel is intense. I also think that your child's prospective major might also be a factor in sorting this out: it may be that in the hard sciences, things can be very rugged at a highly selective college.(but then, again, the major may be the area that comes easiest to a particular student).</p>

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<p>So many good points!</p>

<p>A highly selective school may be a reach in terms of admission, but not necessarily an academically more challenging school than somewhat less selective schools (Reed and Chicago come to mind in this context as being more academically demanding than some other more difficult- to-get-into schools). Some majors involve more competition than others--premed seems to be a highly competitive one by most account. Some scheduling structures also can make for more of a pressure cooker atmosphere. I'm told that Chicago's quarter system makes for fairly relentless pressure because of the constant stream of midterms, papers, finals.
I would consider an academic reach school one in which a student was at the lower end of the stats for admitted students. This may be an indication that the student will have to work hard to keep up.
That being said, students have very different personalities. Some students who were slackers in high school suddenly become motivated when faced with materials which challenge them intellectually for the first time in years. Others get flustered by competition and intimidated by courses/tests that are labeled as harder (I think some studies have been done on this). An anxiety-prone student may feel even more anxious knowing that s/he is at a reach school. Then there are the perfectionists who drive themselves too hard and risk burning out before the end of freshman year.</p>

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<p>College adcoms always say that if you are admitted then you are prepared to handle the academics. I believe that this is true. However a student had better be in the top quarter of the food chain if he/she wants to:
1. take the most challenging courses in the college catalogue</p>

<ol>
<li><p>qualify for departmental scholarships</p></li>
<li><p>be recognized for academic honors</p></li>
<li><p>invited to participate in research(there are often only so
many faculty and department resources available), and </p></li>
<li><p>be admitted into accelerated academic programs(some specialty
majors, bs/ms programs, etc.)</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Our son chose the big fish-small pond approach and, in addition to receiving $25,000/yr in merit scholarships, was invited to the Institute's autumn Awards Convocation ceremony, was accepted into the special dual degree AI program and was academically challenged like never before, scrapping his way to a first year 3.5 gpa.</p>

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<p>To go back to the OP - I think the crux of this is how to raise the issue with your child, or even if it needs to be raised. This is one of those "know your offspring", "practice sensitive listening" things.
Some kids need to be the big fish in a small pond, some who have been singled out because of academic success want to just be "average" or "typical", some who have been less than stellar students are just beginning to blossom and are ready for a challenge beyond what their record would show, some who are just beginning to blossom still need more support, and chances to shine in a less competitive atmosphere.</p>

<p>To the OP, one good reason to always include a reach school, is that your child will grow and change over the senior year, and a school that may seem to be "too much" could be a good fit by the end of senior year - the only danger being the temptation to favor the "reach" over a netter fit just because the reach is more "prestigious" whatever that means!</p>