Just to add some real life context.
I was admitted to Yale without having submitted a financial aid application.
Alongside my admission letter was a request from sfas to send in my CSS profile.
If that’s not need blind, then I don’t know what is.
PS. I am an international student.
@Memmsmom and @intellectboy I also disagree with you. I do believe that Yale is truly needs-blind for international students. Furthermore, it seems like to opposite is occurring here in the UK. From what I have seen over the past three or so years is that everyone who gets into Yale (and H, P & C) from London is lower-income and/or URM. These schools just seem to have no interest in middle-class London kids anymore.
Contrary to what conspiracy theorists might like to suggest, Yale truly is need-blind for internationals. They even allow you to apply for financial aid after you are admitted. If kids from any might seem to come from upper class backgrounds, that’s because wealthier students are statistically more likely to apply to college abroad and be better qualified.
Dear all. Thank you for all your answers. The term “international” is too broad to categorize. Internationals include students from both under represented and over represented countries. I also mentioned India and China for a reason. I am asking, whether any authority checks the validity of need-blind admissions claim by these universities. Every school has specific part of endowment allotted for financial aid with a package for international students. Every year, this cannot be a coincidence that total awarded aid to International students is closed to estimated budget of financial aid. Additionally, this may be possible that schools are now admitting upper class from overrepresented countries to fund the aid for lower class students from under represented countries. We, the middle class, from overrepresented countries are at a loss, and statistics will support this statement.
@intellectboy, you ask “whether any authority checks the validity of need-blind admissions claim.” What authority would you propose do that, and why would schools open their books to them? Being need-blind is voluntary, and the worst sin committed by a school that lies about it would be false advertising or deceptive marketing practices. Do you really think those 5 schools want to snare some international applicants whose financial needs will be taken into account, contrary to what they claim, to boost their stats?
And, what could the authorities actually prove? You’re not suggesting they sit in on AO meetings, right?
Sorry, there’s a lot wrong with college financing. Deceptions around international need-blind (claimed by all of 5 schools) doesn’t seem like a prime target for the “authorities.”
@IxnayBob Actually, you’re right. For now, we have nothing that we suggest can police the need blind admissions.
And yes, colleges do work extremely hard to boost their US News Rankings. From adopting test optional policy at some schools to extending need blind admissions to international students, apart from reaching out to best applicants, this is also done to increase number of applicants. Schools are now signing up across CommonApp, Universal College Application, School Apply and others to increase their number of applicants. When number of spots are limited but number of applicants boost, naturally there is a drastic dip in acceptance rates, and lower acceptance rates do factor in US News Rankings.
@intellectboy , I don’t doubt that many schools game the ratings, but the 5 (FIVE!) schools claiming need-blind for internationals wouldn’t risk the bad press caused by lying for a simple reason: they don’t need to.
CommonApp and the other application methods do boost applications. I don’t think any of the five schools accept anything beyond CommonApp, and MIT, iirc, doesn’t even accept CommonApp. And, while the five have liberalized their testing requirements recently, they are far from test optional.
With all due respect, I think you’re barking up the wrong tree. There are many more trees out there to be concerned about.
I know that Yale is good with its internationals and financial aid from first hand experience. When Greece was having its issues a couple of years back, they sent a letter to the Greek students asking them if their financial situation had changed, and if so, to let them know so they could ensure that they could get back to school.
@Tperry1982 You’re correct. Yale is very generous in awarding aid to students and also helping them pay for their education once they “admitted”. What I have been saying is not that Yale isn’t generous but that for over represented countries (and not under represented countries), colleges will weigh affordability in admissions. Statistically, many high financial aid awardees are URM or from under represented countries. Almost every applicant admitted from India and China in past few years are “coincidentally” are high income.
@Tperry1982 @IxnayBob Both of your arguments are valid, Yale does meet full demonstrated need of every “admitted” international student. Please see the article on Forbes and that video. @londondad Being a low income is never a major disadvantage at these elite schools, but being a low income + from an over represented country = is a disadvantage. With all due respect, you all are elder to me and have better knowledge of admissions at Yale, but the statistics of India and China got me thinking. To the reader of these posts, I do not hold grudge against Yale or any other school. Harvard and Yale are no doubt the best schools in the country and offer most generous aid. Thank you for replying back on my post. Through the examples, I have got to learn more about Admissions.
@intellectboy I’m curious, can you back up your claims with actual statistical evidence?
The links you cited have nothing to do with international admission more so international admission from ‘over represented countries’.
“Almost every applicant admitted from India and China in past few years are “coincidentally” are high income.”
I would love to know the source for the statement as well. But I am not questioning the validity of the statement. I would not be surprised if the majority of these international students do come from wealthy families, just like domestic students.
BTW, I would not describe China or India as over-represented in Yale or Harvard. Take international Chinese students as an example, their numbers at these schools are like 10 each. Given the huge number of applicants from China, it is actually very under-represented when you compare it to UK or Canada. Again, about 10 each year from China is nothing wrong; Yale and Harvard will be benefited by having students from many, many more different countries if % of international students is held at around 10%.
One probably can start to argue that China and/or India may be over-represented at a school, like Cornell. It takes in about 150 international Chinese students a year. It just set up an international office in China, probably to increase its international Chinese students further.
@intellectboy "Being a low income is never a major disadvantage at these elite schools, but being a low income + from an over represented country = is a disadvantage. "
As a resident of another overrepresented country, I could not disagree more. I have followed this area with interest over the past few years and it seems like being lower-income as a UK applicant is a huge advantage with the Ivy League schools. If anything they seem to be getting in at a much, much higher rate than the middle class students. Fortunately, the next level of US Unis, the top 10 LACs and Oxford/Cambridge are more than happy to take these very strong students.
I did some research using Google search to get the list of admitted kids and their background. As @prof2dad said, I wasn’t surprised too that almost every admitted kid from India, in last few admissions cycle, were from wealthy families. And as I said, you all are elder to me, have experience in admissions and also have better knowledge than me. However, it was my quick research + YouTube video + Forbes Article that got me thinking.
@prof2dad https://cloud.oiss.yale.edu/dropbox/pdf/reports/student_fall2016.pdf
Thank you very much for all your inputs. I never intended to hurt anyone’s sentiments or ignore or deny any posts made by others. If I did so, unintentionally, then I am sorry.
Not to worry, @intellectboy, we’re each just expressing our opinions.
To say that most of the admitted kids from India are from wealthy families is no surprise. Unlike America where, at least theoretically, everyone has the right to an education, in India and some other countries that is just not the case. Anyone in some of these countries who gets an education that makes them Ivy material would have to have money to begin with. I am sure the vast majority of folk in India are not worrying about coming to America for school.
Now for some of the other international students, they run the gamut from middle to upper middle class like a good chunk of the rest of Yale’s students and definitely benefit from financial aid.
As a recent graduate, there are definitely some uber wealthy students from developing countries (including China and India), but there were also those from much more modest backgrounds. I lived with some.
Frankly, international admissions are tough - tougher than those for American applicants, at least in my opinion. That’s not to say that admitted international students are any more talented than their American peers. In any case, there aren’t that many spots and there are a lot of potential applicants.
Another thing I’ve noticed is that many international applicants - including those with extremely impressive applications - don’t know how to write college application essays, even if they’re great writers (ie national competition winner level). I’ve helped a few international applicants and there were two cases that stood out to me. One was a student who had an incredibly strong resume (stronger than anything I’ve seen on CC). He showed me his essay and I told him it was inappropriate and to scrap it. He didn’t. He was rejected everywhere. Another girl, who had a very strong track record but which wasn’t quite on the same level as the other guy, also showed me an essay that probably would have given the adcoms a reason to reject her. I told her she couldn’t submit it, and she rewrote it. She’s now at Harvard.
It’s not just an opinion. For most top U.S. colleges, and I doubt Yale is the exception, international acceptance rates are about half the overall rate.
I’m an international alum and interviewer, so I am also well aware of that. I’m sure some Americans would make some arguments that they have to excel more in extra curriculars when applying (which is probably true), but just on numbers, it’s really tough for internationals.
Not all that long ago, Yale was NOT need blind for internationals. This became a major issue. There were lots of demonstrations, etc. and the organization of international students was at the forefront of the demand for change. So, the policy was changed. That was roughly 15 years ago. Yale is now need-blind for internationals.
I don’t think there’s any accreditation body that checks this. However, I suspect that if Yale reverted to need sensitive that all of the internationals on campus–some 10% or more of the student body–would have something to say about it. It’s the organization of international students that keeps Yale honest.
Whether a university is need blind for international students has little to do with its international student organizations and their fighting powers. There are far more international students at Columbia, UPenn, or Cornell, but they do not get need blind. HYPM and Amherst College are able to do so because they have enough endowment for it. The main reason that Dartmouth ceased to do so 1-2 years ago was that their medical school and hospital has been losing money like crazy; it just did not have enough financial capacity to continue its need blind policy for international students.