An institution of indisputable tippy top quality and selectivity has finally had the guts to tell it like it is. Dean Gerken’s statement (link below) is nothing short of courageous and most of what she points out equally applies to the undergraduate rankings. I am sure this will resonate with most of us parents here at CC. Let it rip!
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Wow, that is an impressive stance and a well-reasoned decision; kudos to Yale.
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Kudos to Dean Gerken. It’s a well written piece and a damning indictment of USNWR rankings (and not just with regards to law school rankings).
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Since YLS has been #1 forever, they can clearly do what they want. While well-written, I think her letter misses a few nuances.
For example, not sure why Law schools should be able to claim rankings points for a federal loan forgiveness programs targeted towards those that go into public service (10 years, for example under PSLF) that is open to grads of every law school. Yes, she is not asking for credit per se, but she is criticizing USNews for excluding loan forgiveness programs in their calculations.
Or, the fact that USNews (and Law School Transparency) discount ‘research’ jobs given to grads by law schools bcos they would be otherwise unemployed (thus, artificially boosting their employment numbers). Sure, YLS students are the best and brightest, but law schools down the food chain are definitely gaming their employment numbers by giving grads ‘research’ jobs that pay minimally. (Law School Transparency has been shining light on this issue for years, with good reason.)
OTOH, YLS does sponsor its own loan forgiveness program, and that would be something that should be factored in.
And not sure about what she’s trying to say about students who are also working on another graduate degree (MA/Phd…), as those students are not in the rankings as they are reported separately by ABA (“Enrolled in Graduate Studies”).
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Harvard Law also announced that it was withdrawing from the USNews rankings.
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I would not be surprised if it was somewhat coordinated.
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this is a wonderful thing. students should also stop submitting lsat scores and grades and instead wrie an essay on why that is a poor way of measuring them.
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It’s a commendable decision, but Yale and Harvard do not choose whether they are included in USNWR’s ranking or not. In the past, USNWR has ranked colleges that do not fill out their questionnaire based on public information and information submitted in previous years. I expect USNWR will continue to do so in the future, including both Yale and Harvard in next year’s rankings. What might change is Yale and Harvard’s ranking number on the list.
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This is the likely outcome. There is a felt need for rankings from consumers of legal education. So rankers will exist, and so will rankings. If people did not like the current ranking system, they can just not look at the existing rankings. Clearly that is happening – so the provision of rankings is a service that is in demand.
At least part of Yale’s explanation appears to be that they don’t want rankings to be driven by GPA and LSAT scores as they want to admit more disadvantaged applicants with lower scores, and do away with the merit aid that other law schools use.
The desire for more “holistic” and less “quantitative” measures has certain echoes of the Harvard undergrad admissions litigation, which makes me wonder about the timing of this decision with a Supreme Court ruling coming next spring.
The result is likely only that they can’t complain if they don’t like the rankings, as they will still be ranked, as USN has long done for “non participating” schools.
I am sure they are fully aware of that, and don’t give a hoot, because in terms of law school prestige at this point no one can dethrone Yale and Harvard in the absence of huge changes at those schools. Too many supreme court justices and unrivaled ridiculously (almost inequitable) successful outcomes.
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We are deep, deep into some kind of parallel universe when the President of the #1 law school can attack the rankings services as a justification for refusing to provide information to a service that many prospective law students use to make decisions about their future. We go further into this parallel universe when that same law school President justifies his decision in the name of “equity”.
I can guarantee that the vast majority of the law schools in this country provide more access to students from disadvantaged backgrounds than Yale does. What percentage of Yale Law’s student body is prep school/T20? What percentage of the law schools ranked 51 to 100 are from that kind of background? What percentage of Yale law students need to work their way through law school or go part time? What percentage of the students at the law schools ranked 51 to 100 have to do that? What percentage of Yale law students go on to top corporate and Wall Street law firms? What percentage of the students in the second 50 law schools go on to work in small town and neighborhood law practices, actually helping their communities?
Gerken opens the letter bragging about how Yale is #1, and seems to be demanding credit for Yale having a huge endowment when he talks about how schools should be rewarded for their ability to provide financial aid.
This letter reeks of a “I am taking my ball and going home” temper tantrum. It takes a special level of arrogance and entitlement for a top law school to not only refuse to participate in an important informational service, but to also use “equity” as an excuse for its petulant behavior.
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I have had a lot of issues with Yale Law School over the past year or two, but I am proud of the school for making this decision. For the record, I was admitted to YLS after graduating from an unranked open admission state college, and I paid my own way. And Heather Gerken is a “she.”
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I think what they are doing is, in the main, commendable. However, Harvard and Yale don’t need USNews to validate their quality – their reputations long preceded this and other rankings. They could tumble to 50th and 51st next year, and they would still be two of the most respected law schools in the country.
It would be riskier for less-known/revered law schools to do the same, as their application numbers (and quality) probably rely on the rankings to a greater degree.
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I don’t have the time to do the research for you. But the answer to your questions is the opposite of what you imply would be. Close to half or more of YLS grads go into government or public interest law or academia right after YLS, and YLS does offer a disproportionate amount of acceptance to first gen and state-college applicants. Harvard, however, is a totally different story.
I think you have YLS all wrong in your speculative implications about YLS and Dean Gerken; I can’t say the same about HLS and am not familiar with Berkeley.
Btw, no one in the legal profession disputes that Yale Law School is the number one and best place to go to law school, and it has nothing to do with USNR. Even the Harvard folks accept it, and that says it all.
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I heard that Yale is the top school for govt service, academic law, and going into the courts (SCOTUS etc), while Stanford is the best for corporate law – due to association with Tech. Harvard is an imperfect mix of the two categories. And Yale and Harvard are much different in size. Yale ~ 200; Harvard ~ 800
I somewhat get the meh reaction here, but come on. This is at the end of the day a good thing. Yale, Harvard, Berkeley. It’s a good start and others will undoubtedly follow. And hopefully this eventually flows to the undergrad level.
Will rankings still happen? Yes of course.
But as a very wise person said, when a measure becomes a goal it is no longer a useful measure. WAY too much gamesmanship has gone into climbing the rankings.
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I don’t understand what the angst is about rankings. If you don’t like them you can ignore them. Other people who like them will look at them.
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