yale more selective than harvard...

<p>Dear Byerly,
I just found College Confidential a couple days ago, and, as an accepted member to Yale 2010, have been passively looking at the Yale message board. I formed this userid because I was so shocked by the smugness of your posts, with your reply to TopNotch being particularly particularly egregious, and I felt that I couldn't help but respond.</p>

<pre><code>I congratulate you as a member of Harvard. Harvard College is an undeniably great school, and, in my opinion, the University itself is the world's greatest. But your condescension towards Yale and towards Yalies only lends credence to the oft-stereotyped Harvard pretension, a stereotype which so many Harvard grads try to undo. I assure you, not all Yalies are Harvard rejects. I didn't feel Harvard was right for me, and so I didn't apply, despite having a fine application, the recommendation of a senior Clinton strategist (more than just the perfunctory "I recommend the son of my friend's friend"), and having had a Harvard alumnus and interviewer tell Byerly Hall to look out for me while I was still a sophomore.

I disagree with your claim that Yale is no Harvard. In terms of international prestige, perhaps not. You could walk into a store in Bangladesh and tell the shopkeeper you went to Harvard, and that shopkeeper would think you an exceptionally smart fellow. Perhaps, going to Yale, I could not expect the same response. I don't think too many in America smirk at the name Yale, even when juxtaposed against Harvard, but that's irrelevant. My larger point is this - impressing others is not the sole reason to attend any institution, nor are the number of books, the size of the endowment, nor even the number of Nobel laureates, and I brook serious quarrel with your implications across the Yale boards that they are.

Perhaps what I found most offensive in your post to TopNotch was that TopNotch can and should can hold their head up high because they got into a school with "name and prestige" (even though it doesn't have quite the name and prestige of Harvard). I don't know Topnotch -though I hope I get the chance to next year - but if they have a right to hold their head up high, it's because they've made the most of the opportunities they've been afforded, because they've worked hard, and because they've found a code of ethics to live by. If the reason you are proud of yourself is because you got into Harvard, I'd think you haven't lived much of a life. Surely the best thing someone can say about you isn't "Harvard student."

At best, getting into Harvard (or even Yale) is a recognition. It isn't an achievement - it's a recognition of what you have already achieved. So too is a rejection. It doesn't take anything away from who you are or what you have accomplished. It is a decision made by an admissions panel.

I'm sorry Byerly, I did not mean to turn this into a diatribe, but frankly, this view that "prestige" means everything, and that there is a hierarchy in which "Harvard students > Yale, Princeton students > Ivy students > everybody else" truly frustrates me. Perhaps, if the gap in prestige is as large as you make it seem, when people hear that you are a "Harvard grad," standing next to me, a mere "Yale grad," they will indeed perceive you to be smarter than I. But as soon as we're asked to open our mouthes, you're going to have to prove that you ARE smarter. And the name of Harvard cannot help you there.

Respectfully Yours,
  DMW

</code></pre>

<p>DMW, that was great. Yale is lucky to have you. I'm going to add this:</p>

<p>Byerly, you always claim that you have never denigrated any school, and that you are just here to give the facts. Perhaps your last post on this thread doesn't technically constitute a contradiction to this claim, but it sure comes close.</p>

<p>I don't even want to go into what has to be driving you, an adult 40 years past his Harvard days, to go around making teenagers feel like cr*p about their college choices, because that is exactly what you are doing. Top Notch's post did smack of bitterness - but to cruelly, and without reason tear away whatever pretence he might be using to get over being rejected by his first choice suggests a nastiness I didn't think even you were capable of. Would you be pleased if he read your post and wound up unhappy about his rejection? You can't claim that you thought his post might influence others to choose Yale over Harvard; it wasn't at alal persuasive, even if Harvard needed the help. So I have to conclude that your motivation was petty spite against anyone who casts aspersions upon your alma mater.</p>

<p>You know what? I do want to go into what is driving you. Obviously, I can't know for sure. But there has to be some insecurity that causes the prestige of Harvard to be tied so closely with your personal ego. Maybe you didn't get into the grad school you wanted. Maybe you have children who didn't get into Harvard. Maybe, even after 40 years in the real world, graduating Harvard is still the last big accomplishment for you to feel proud of. But whatever it is, leave the pre-frosh alone. Provide all the data and links you want, but to tell a future Eli that going to Yale is something he should have to "live with" is just brutal.</p>

<p>TopNotch, congratulations on your Yale acceptance. You should be in for a great four years.</p>

<p>Lighten up, Icargirl. Nowhere do I suggest that anyone should "feel like ****p" for enrolling at Yale. It is one of the world's great universities, and I have never uttered a single word criticizing the quality of a Yale education. It is a fine choice for anyone lucky enough to be admitted.</p>

<p>"Prestige" is a word I always put in quotes, since I am not entirely sure what it means. Its insertion into this discussion was not by me, but by another, who asserts that anyone choosing Harvard does so "soley for the name and prestige." I disagree - and believe I am entitled to dispute the assertion, no matter what the word may mean to the poster.</p>

<p>"You could walk into a store in Bangladesh and tell the shopkeeper you went to Harvard, and that shopkeeper would think you an exceptionally smart fellow. Perhaps, going to Yale, I could not expect the same response."</p>

<p>I wouldn't say that. Most Yale T-shirts are made in Bangledesh these days.</p>

<p>My "Harvard: the Stanford of the East" t-shirt was made in Honduras.</p>

<p>My "Harvard: the Michigan of the East" t-shirt was ALSO made in Honduras (for Champion Authentic Apparel")</p>

<p>My "Nichols State University: Harvard on the Bayou" t-shirt was ALSO made in Honduras (for JanSport)</p>

<p>My "Harvard: the Pomona of the East" t-shirt was ALSO made in Honduras (also for JanSport)</p>

<p>
[quote]
At first I was dissapointed, but after learning about the undergrad experience at both...Yale is by far the best!

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Me in a nutshell. At first, I was disappointed about Harvard, but Yale has proven to be a blessing in disguise. If I had been accepted to Harvard, I would have gone because Harvard was HARVARD, you know? I had been so obsessed with the Harvard brand up to that point that I had forced myself to ignore all the bad press about Harvard--the unhappy students, the disjointed Core curriculum, the bad advising, the crappy program in my chosen field, etc. It wasn't until March 30 that I got over the Harvard Brand Syndrome, seriously researched Yale, and sat down and asked myself what it was about Harvard that made me truly want to attend that school, and you know what? I came up with a paltry four reasons--all of which are so superficial I don't even want to post them here--for attending Harvard. That's compared to eleven reasons for Yale, among which are better research opportunities and a more welcoming, accepting environment. It's scary to think that I would have missed out on a Yale undergrad experience had things been different.</p>

<p>How many reasons would you give Princeton?</p>

<p>Some very healthy rationalizing by Ginny. It's always a good thing to bond to your school, even if its your second choice, and to buy into its myths!</p>

<p>I loved this Ginny quote following the fateful day:</p>

<p>"I was on the USS Crimson for a while, but that ship was a no-go, so now I'm on the USS Bulldog, instead."</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showpost.php?p=2072200&postcount=7%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showpost.php?p=2072200&postcount=7&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>As she noted ruefully to a fellow poster who retained a glimmer of hope:
"I'm in almost the same boat you are, except you've still got that waitlist ticket. There's always Harvard grad school."</p>

<hr>

<p>Ginny, I wish you well! Come November, I have no doubt you'll show up at the stadium lustily yelling "HARVARD SUCKS" with your classmates, even as the USS Bulldog sinks beneath the waves once more. :)</p>

<p>We may indeed "sink beneath the waves once more," but as always, we'll go out with a [url=<a href="http://harvardsucks.org/images/harvard_poster.jpg%5Dbang%5B/url"&gt;http://harvardsucks.org/images/harvard_poster.jpg]bang[/url&lt;/a&gt;].&lt;/p>

<p>You GO, Girl! </p>

<p><a href="http://www.safetyschool.org%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.safetyschool.org&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>yale does seem really warm! The whole admissions committee appears young, fresh, and very down to earth. They have been keeping well communication with me (and other applicants) and I find this much more welcoming than Princeton's NO shirt, LITTLE email policy. I even got a personal letter from the admissions officer! I know now why I was admitted......folks...your essays are crucial!!!</p>

<p>So the t-shirt was the clincher, eh?</p>

<p>apfreak, What was your entry-enabling essay about?</p>

<p>All of Byerly's rankings are far out of date, and much of it is incorrect to begin with. Byerly is a well-known stretcher of the facts when it comes to the Harvard admissions office. In the above post, he is even quoting himself (under a different name) in one of these cases. </p>

<p>The fact is, for 2 of the past 3 years, Yale has been more selective than Harvard.</p>

<p>It is more selective in student outcomes, lately, too: Yale students received 3 Rhodes and 5 Marshall scholarships this year - more than the rest of the Ivy League schools combined - while Harvard received just one of the awards. Final Score: Yale 8, Harvard 1.</p>

<p>
[quote]
The whole admissions committee appears young, fresh, and very down to earth. ... I even got a personal letter from the admissions officer! I know now why I was admitted......folks...your essays are crucial!!!

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I second the part about the committee being down-to-earth and keeping good communications with the acceptees. In contrast, a classmate of mine and I were looking at the Harvard admit board (she was admitted to Harvard but is leaning towards Princeton), and their messageboards, as well as the entire admit site for that matter, seriously, er, leave much to be desired. </p>

<p>apfreak is right in that Yale weighs the essay heavily.</p>

<p>And yes, in the admissions game, first you give the T-shirts, then you get the students. It all comes down to marketing in the end.</p>

<p>harvard's rhodes scholar this year was actually a first-year grad student who had attended the naval academy for undergrad. it's arguably apples and oranges to count him for harvard. even excluding him, however, it's simply not true that yale had more rhodes and marshall winners this year than the other ivies combined. the others combined for nine winners (ten counting harvard's rhodes) to yale's seven. you really can't count yale's and others' double winners twice, for various and obvious reasons.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.rhodesscholar.org/PDF/2006_final_press_release_winners_bios.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.rhodesscholar.org/PDF/2006_final_press_release_winners_bios.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.marshallscholarship.org/winners.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.marshallscholarship.org/winners.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.mediarelations.k-state.edu/WEB/News/NewsReleases/scholarschart06.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.mediarelations.k-state.edu/WEB/News/NewsReleases/scholarschart06.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Before anybody pees in their pants about what happened with Rhodes etc this year (as opposed to LAST year, etc) a little perspective may be in order:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.mediarelations.ksu.edu/WEB/News/NewsReleases/scholarschart.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.mediarelations.ksu.edu/WEB/News/NewsReleases/scholarschart.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>ahem, i already posted that very link in the post just above yours, but using the 2006 version. may be time to update your link sheet!</p>

<p>Consider it done, scottie .... but as you know, the point remains: HARVARD has, in the past 20 years, had more Rhodes and Marshall winners than Yale and Princeton .... COMBINED!!</p>

<p><a href="http://www.mediarelations.k-state.edu/WEB/News/NewsReleases/scholarschart06.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.mediarelations.k-state.edu/WEB/News/NewsReleases/scholarschart06.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>are you kıddıng me Byerly? Harvard catchıng up wıth MIT ın engıneerıng. Does No. 1 v.s. no. 40 mean anythıng to you? I would choose Cornell engıneerıng (yes, gasp... the taıl end of the ıvıes) over Harvard any day. I wasn't even aware that Harvard had an engıneerıng program. Shows you how prestıgıous that ıs.</p>