<p>what you are saying doesn't even make sense! how can somebody get stellar scores and not be fluent in english? you are contradicting yourself! either explain how this can happen or admit that it does not make sense...if you are referring to their accents then say so, so that we can talk about whether or not having a good accent qualifies as not being fluent (which it doesn't)</p>
<p>and also, of course I know that Yale is need-blind, but only 6 or so colleges out of the thousands are need-blind.</p>
<p>^stellar scores does not equal language fluency! How many times do I have to tell you that I have first hand experience in this?</p>
<p>and btw, if you didn't notice, I am talking explicitly about Yale, not the other thousands of colleges (I thought I'd made this point very clear)</p>
<p>oh, and that makes complete sense! because the SAT does not examine one's linguistic skills, nor does TOEFL - which stands for test of english as a foreign language for heaven's sake! and the fact that you have first hand experience is so convincing to persuade us for your generalizations - which ARE generalizations because if you do not call this generalization i dont know what it is:
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I guess that in general int'l admission is lower, since many int'ls may not be fluent in English as domestic applicants are.
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</p>
<p>so either you explain how it is that two tests which are created to validate linguistic skills fail to do so, or you just don't say anything...but please, dont mention your "first hand accounts" because that's hardly a fact, let alone a convincing one</p>
<p>^Geez... first of all, calm down, so that you can open up your mind to new possibilities.
Secondly, how many times to I have to tell you, that many of my friends have almost perfect scores in Toefl, 2200+ in the SAT, and have poor linguistic skills? Tests are standarized, therefore predictable, and thus coachable. Most people in my boarding school are super-motivated, so they memorize every vocab in the Barron's 3500 list, but can barely use basic words in conversation.</p>
<p>And btw, I think you're forgetting that I'm also an international.</p>
<p>"ow many times to I have to tell you, that many of my friends have almost perfect scores in Toefl, 2200+ in the SAT, and have poor linguistic skills?"</p>
<p>i am guessing 10 more ..</p>
<p>by the way, both the SAT and toefl have writing sections and essays, which you cannot excel at unless you are at least modestly good, and to get truly stellar scores, you do have to be fluent. If you are trying to convince me that your friends aced the SAT but cannot articulate a sentence as simple as "could you tell me the time please" then i'm sorry but I dont think i can believe that - to me it seems virtually impossible. Perhaps you could upload a video on youtube, otherwise no matter how many times you state that your friends aced the tests but cannot verbalize basic words, i won't be able to digest it, simply because it is self-contradictory to its core...</p>
<p>and if you can find a plausible explanation of why when writing they can be fully articulate but not when speaking, of why they comprehend advanced words contextually - as the SAT requires - but cannot use basic words in a sentence, i'd be more than welcome to hear it. but please, stop stating arbitrarily:</p>
<p>
[quote]
How many times do I have to tell you that I have first hand experience in this?
<p>international students have low admission rates, because universities tend to admit them in lower percentages than the US citizens. That's all. There are many qualified international applicants, but not many universities willing to admit them all. That's why everybody refers to the international students applicants pool as extremely competitive. It doesn't have to do with any possible incompetence of the international students</p>
<p>Domestic students get priority. Simple as that. It does make sense, but I am happy that the schools which can afford a larger international population are willing to take us on and recognize it as a diversity boost.</p>
<p>Debate_addict, I somewhat agree with Kowloon. Someone who scores well on the SAT will be able to read fluently, will have a large vocabulary, and good grammar. He will even be able to write relatively well (essay). However, the SAT does not test whether that applicant can speak English well. For example, in my French class, I can read advanced literature in French, write in French, answer questions in French.. but when I speak in French, I still have to think and formulate my sentences, and I THINK in English - and then translate my thoughts into the French. I would not consider that fluency. The vocal component (not just accent, but the process of speech) is missing from the SAT and to me is a large part of fluency, probably the most critical. Just because some international applicant can get a 2200+ on the SAT doesn't mean he can carry on a natural conversation with an American, or even a partially natural one. Obviously, nobody expects someone who has never stepped on American soil to speak like a native, with all the current slang and customs.</p>
<p>I think my question has been ignored throughout this thread, so let me restate my question:
Is the Yale community divided into niches, especially the int'l body? Do int'ls from a same country tend to stick with each other, or do they actively interact with the rest?</p>
<p>I understand your definition of fluency amber, and I agree with it completely. However, Kowloon has said that his "friends" cannot even put together basic sentences. While what you are saying is perfectly correct, Kowloon has degraded the english of his friends to such an extent I am either beginning to doubt whether these people are not fictional or that they did get so high scores in SAT and TOEFL. </p>
<p>And by the way, TOEFL has a speaking section, in which fluency is examined! (duh!) So, even with reference to the tests mentioned, the validity of "two friends with stellar scores but who cannot put together basic words" just falls apart. The accent, i repeat, IS NOT part of fluency. Fluency is whether you can speak coherently and cohesively. </p>
<p>I'm an international and had to take CPE (from Cambridge), so i spent 7 years of my life preparing for this exam. And i do know the sections that are examined - and how they are examined - in both CPE (which grants candidates teaching adequacy) and TOEFL. And I can tell you that fluency is graded - and in the higher dipomas, LIKE TOEFL and CPE, it is deemed very important in the oral sector.</p>
<p>With respect to the niches: the Greek people I know who go to Yale are close-ish, but no. They don't hang out with just each other. Some do, but others have tons of friends from miscellaneous backgrounds...i think from what i've seen that it depends how you conduct yourself socially..</p>
<p>P.S. Fluency is not defined as thinking in English amber, IMO....</p>
<p>
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P.S. Fluency is not defined as thinking in English amber, IMO....
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I think the point of that wasn't that she's thinking in English, but she thinks in English before putting together a sentence in French. And that's what shows that she still isn't fluent in French, her second language, I think. </p>
<p>And also, some TOEFL tests don't have the speaking section (like paper-based ones) so some people not fluent in spoken English could ace that ;)</p>
<p>And I'm glad to hear that internationals at Yale are not hanging out with the other internationals only!</p>