<p>
[quote]
That is absurd.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Byerly, I've yet to hear how you are connected to Harvard. This is the fourth time I've asked...</p>
<p>he is an elder alum</p>
<p>though I am a yalie at heart, I <em>REALLY</em> doubt those numbers are accurate for Harvard college. Wikipedia has been known to be a tad skewed sometimes, maybe posterx got a hold of the entry...</p>
<p>"Presidential candidates? Al Gore was a Harvardian. GWB went to HBS."</p>
<p>Going to Harvard Business School or Harvard Law School does not make one a "Harvard Man". Going to Harvard College is the only thing that matters. JFK was a Harvard Man. George W. Bush is not.</p>
<p>JFK began at Princeton though...</p>
<p>
[quote]
Going to Harvard Business School or Harvard Law School does not make one a "Harvard Man". Going to Harvard College is the only thing that matters.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Even tho I'm mostly pro-Yale on these boards, I'm going to have to point out the obvious here: Grad school is way more important than undergrad (unless you don't go to grad school, like Al Gore). Just because this forum focuses on undergrad education doesn't change the fact that it's still just undergrad education.</p>
<p>al gore failed out of divinity school after harvard</p>
<p>Yale UG takes the cake for American politics, GeorgeS? </p>
<p>How so? You could look at a trend in which Yale undergrads tend to go to Harvard graduate school--they might not have gotten into HC.</p>
<p>Also, for things like politics and law, UNDERGRADUATE IS IRRELEVANT (as you said). So why make that assertion? Your first placement, your first job, your resume--all of that is almost entirely dependent on your graduate institution. 5 of the 9 SC justices went to, like it or not, HLS. Where they went to UG is meaningless because it's just a stepping stone to law school. </p>
<p>I don't really want to take Harvard's side, but with data from a easily-falsified source such as Wikipedia, and faulty reasoning...</p>
<p>Zephyr151, perhaps you failed to read my original post: </p>
<p>I argue incessantly (it's a multi-page post) that Yale dominates the undergrad realm while Harvard dominates in the grad department.</p>
<p>Now, as for your assertion that I have "faulty reasoning", well, let's see:</p>
<p>
[quote]
You could look at a trend in which Yale undergrads tend to go to Harvard graduate school--they might not have gotten into HC.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You're accusing me of faulty reasoning?</p>
<p>
[quote]
5 of the 9 SC justices went to, like it or not, HLS.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Really? Well, it appears that 8 Supreme Court justices went to Yale College while only 4 went to Harvard College.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Also, for things like politics and law, UNDERGRADUATE IS IRRELEVANT (as you said). So why make that assertion?
[/quote]
</p>
<ol>
<li><p>I said that graduate education is more important than undergraduate education, not that it was, in your words, "IRRELEVANT". I stand by my claim wholeheartedly that graduate education is more important than undergraduate education, and, as I already pointed out in my original thread, Harvard is better than Yale as a graduate institution when it comes to American politics.</p></li>
<li><p>Yale, however, clearly dominates in the undergrad department when it comes to American politics. I have no seen no evidence to the contrary, only hot air.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>
[quote]
Where they went to UG is meaningless because it's just a stepping stone to law school.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Even if this were 100% true, it doesn't change the fact that Yale College seems to be the predominate choice among American politicians as the best "stepping stone" to Harvard Law.</p>
<p>In summary, Yale College and Harvard Law are the dominate institutional forces when it comes to American politics.</p>
<p>Why, dear lord why, does this thread still exist?</p>
<p>"Really? Well, it appears that 8 Supreme Court justices went to Yale College while only 4 went to Harvard College."
There are only 9 SC justices last time I checked, unless FDR did actually pack the court. </p>
<p>"Yale, however, clearly dominates in the undergrad department when it comes to American politics. "
See? That's my point. It's a meaningless assertion. Your reasoning is based on the accomplishments of students who a) graduated 40 years ago and b) made their mark in graduate school, rather than undergraduate. </p>
<p>You can argue that Yale College is better for say, I-banking, which does not often require graduate degrees, and that would be a meaningful statement. For "politics" it's simply not true. </p>
<p>"Even if this were 100% true, it doesn't change the fact that Yale College seems to be the predominate choice among American politicians as the best "stepping stone" to Harvard Law."
Politicians from 40 years ago, and in the case of SC justices, maybe 60 years ago. It's irrelevant to college admissions today. </p>
<p>"In summary, Yale College and Harvard Law are the dominate institutional forces when it comes to American politics."
I still don't think you've backed that up adequately.</p>
<p>""Really? Well, it appears that 8 Supreme Court justices went to Yale College while only 4 went to Harvard College."
There are only 9 SC justices last time I checked, unless FDR did actually pack the court."</p>
<p>Wow that made no sense. Good job trying to act smart. While I doubt the numbers themselves, I think there have been more than 9 supreme court justices in US history.</p>
<p>"You can argue that Yale College is better for say, I-banking, which does not often require graduate degrees, and that would be a meaningful statement. For "politics" it's simply not true."</p>
<p>Zephyr, I really have to disagree with you. Politics does not require any graduate degree (unless you are talking about the supreme court). and I am willing to bet that most members of congress don't have a graduate degree. I understand your point that the graduate degree is more important to your job field. But its not like the senate is full of PoliSci PhD's or MPP's. I think a law degree could be useful but it is in no way necessary to be a politician. And I would also make the argument that supreme court justices, as they are appointed, are not really politicians.</p>
<p>I was referring to a law degree, mainly. It's very true for the Senate.</p>
<p>This is from a PDF:</p>
<p>"As has been true in previous Congresses, the Members of the 109th Congress are well
educated. At least 397 Members of the House and 97 Senators hold bachelors degrees;
121 Members of the House and 20 Senators have masters degrees; 172 Members of the
House and 57 Senators hold law degrees; 19 Members of the House have doctoral
degrees; and 13 Members of the House and four Senators hold medical degrees.</p>
<p>So that would make 81 senators (assuming that there are no repeats) with a law degree, master's degree or M.D.</p>
<p>That's significant.</p>
<p>Every presidential candidate in recent years has had an advanced degree sans Reagan.</p>
<p>"I think there have been more than 9 supreme court justices in US history."
I questioned the data, considering that 12 =/= 9.</p>
<p>do you really think that (with the possible exception of a law degree) a graduate degree really is important to becoming a politician? I mean, according to your post, some 50+ members of congress don't even have a bachelor's, and they're in DC right now. If you showed a stat that demonstrated that most of senators had a higher degree in public policy, governance, or political science, then that would be something. The creation of law and the practice of law in a court room are two different things which is why I loosely and rather suspiciously say that a law degree can have some applicability to becoming a politician. But it doesn't translate into having studied politics. </p>
<p>The point is that there is no real graduate school for becoming a politician. Its just the perception of being smart and having the ability to make the right decisions for one's constituency. And it is almost irrespective of whether you studied medicine like Frist or business like Bush (well, no one really thinks he is smart). Its just a title that has nothing to do with you being a politician, just well educated. And I guaranteee the institution that matters most is the one with the most prestige. If you went to harvard as an undergrad and OSU for a masters in public policy, I guarantee you the Harvard bachelors will hold much more weight with voters than OSU (assuming you aren't in ohio). Its all about public perception and to them a Harvard or Yale or whatever degree is going to far outweigh other universities no matter what degree you got at any level.</p>
<p>"In summary, Yale College and Harvard Law are the dominate institutional forces when it comes to American politics."</p>
<p>Correction, the people who choose to go there dominate.</p>
<p>I originally said:</p>
<p>
[quote]
"Really? Well, it appears that 8 Supreme Court justices went to Yale College while only 4 went to Harvard College."</p>
<p>
[/quote]
</p>
<p>in response, Haukim said:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Wow that made no sense. Good job trying to act smart. While I doubt the numbers themselves, I think there have been more than 9 supreme court justices in US history."
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Unfortunetely for Haukim, I was referring to the total history of the Supreme Court in regards to Harvard and Yale only. In America's history, 9 SC Justices have gone to Yale College while 4 have gone to Harvard College. "Good Job trying to act smart," Haukim. It is also worth pointing out that on the flipside, Harvard Law has had 12 SC Justices vs. Yale Laws 9. Again, throughout this entire thread Ive been fair to both Harvard and Yale (as opposed to the trolls who roam some of these boards).</p>
<p>
[quote]
"In summary, Yale College and Harvard Law are the dominate institutional forces when it comes to American politics."</p>
<p>Correction, the people who choose to go there dominate.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I can definitely agree with this one. I've been a bit pushy with the assumption that an institution having the most successful alumni in a field (whether it be Yale or Harvard) points to an institutions dominance. This is not true. Some of the best politicians in history come from State Schools, and college contributes to only a smidget of these great leaders development. The institutional choice of great leaders can serve as an indicator of a great college, but only as an indicator. In this case, it is obvious that Harvard, Yale, and Princeton come out at the top. I happen to think, based off of the indicators, that Yale College and Harvard Law are the best prep for great leaders. I respect other dissenting opinions equally, however.</p>
<p>I've had fun debating this topic and wish everyone in this thread a great 4 years of college, whether for Yale, Princeton, or Harvard.</p>
<p>Peace,</p>
<p>GeorgeS</p>
<p>Please do not fabricate information.</p>
<p>There have been at least 9 U.S. Supreme Court Justices who went to Harvard College (not Harvard Law School):</p>
<p>William Cushing 1790-1810
Joseph Story 1812-1845
Benjamin Curtis 1851-1857
Horace Gray 1882-1902
Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr 1902-1932
William Moody 1906-1910
Harry Blackmum 1970-1994
David Souter 1990-present
John Roberts 2006-present</p>
<p>In contrast, there have been 7 who graduated from Yale College:</p>
<p>Morrison Waite 1974-1888
William Taft 1921-1930
Henry Baldwin 1830-1844
William Story 1870-1880
Henry Brown 1891-1966
George Shiras 1892-1903 (transferred from Ohio University in junior year)
Potter Stewart 1958-1981
Oliver Ellsworth 1796-1800 started at Yale but transferred to Princeton in his sophomore year</p>
<p>Looking at the current U.S. Senate reveals the following:</p>
<p>College:
Harvard - Chuck Schumer, Ted Stevens, David Vitter, Ed Kennedy, Jeff Bingaman, John Rockefeller IV (total of 6)
Yale - Joe Liberman, Bill Nelson, John Kerry, Mark Dayton, James Jeffords (BSIA, not BA) - total of 5
Princeton - Christopher Bond, Bill Frist (total of 2)
Stanford - Diane Feinstein, Mark Baucus, Kent Conrad, Ron Wyden (total of 4)</p>
<p>Graduate School:
Harvard - Michael Crapo, Barrack Obama, Paul Sarbanes, Carl Levin, Chuck Schumer, Russel Feingold, James Jeffords (all JDs so far), Elizabeth Dole (JD and MA), Jack Reed (JD and MPP from Kennedy School), Herbert Kohol (MBA), John Sununu (MBA), Bill Frist (MD) for a total of 12</p>
<p>Yale- Joe Liberman, Hillary Clinton, Arlen Specter (all JDs, total of 3)
Stanford - Mark Baucus, Jeff Bingaman (all JDs, total of 2) </p>
<p>Where is the "domination" by Yale here?</p>
<p>College:
Harvard - John Adams, John Quincy Adams, JFK, FDR, Teddy Roosevelt (total of 5)
Yale - William Taft, George H.W. Bush, George W. Bush (total of 3)</p>
<p>Graduate School:
Harvard - Rutherford Hayes (JD), George W. Bush (MBA) - total of 2
Yale - Bill Clinton (JD), Gerald Ford (LLB) - total of 2</p>
<p>Where is the "domination" by Yale here?</p>
<p>In terms of the "great political leaders" from Yale College, here's a quote from Harvard Magazine July-August 2006 issue:</p>
<p>The presidency of Summers has been an unmitigated disaster for Harvard. He represents the mediocrity that is so prevalent in America today. When I compare the great Franklin D. Roosevelt with the unbelievable mediocrity sitting in the White House today, I realize how far down the road we have traveled as a nation.</p>
<p>I hope the next president of Harvard will be a man of great intelligence and integrity. We are the greatest university in America and deserve only the best. Eric Sokolsky 48 Los Angeles</p>