<p>No matter how slight the differences may be perceived to be, the result is an overwhelming preference among top students when offered a choice.</p>
<p>According to the Revealed Preference study cited by Byerly, 64.7% "prefer" Harvard over Yale. To refer to a numerical advantage of this magnitude as an "overwhelming preference" is nothing other than rah rah Harvard. For the record, Harvard's revealed preference over Stanford is about 73%, and over Princeton, 75%.</p>
<p>Recall that those are broad sample numbers from 4-5 years ago, and not actual cross-admit numbers.</p>
<p>My son last night had a bit of an epiphany that Yale, and not Harvard, should be his first choice. He decided that he might not grow as much as a person if he were to go to a school full of kids like him. He thinks instead he should go to a more "social" school like Yale to broaden his horizons and learn more about himself the person (as opposed to him the supersmart, supercompetitive, superachieving student). But to Byerly, if he goes to Yale instead of Harvard, he'll be settling for second best -- and that's a tough thing for me as a mom to swallow.</p>
<p>Probably a crisis of confidence that he will hopefully outgrow. </p>
<p>Be understanding and supportive, and he may yet come around!</p>
<p>Byerly,
If it's any consolation, he says he'll apply to Harvard for law school. By then, he'll have the socializing out of his system.</p>
<p>
[quote]
... he may yet come around!
[/quote]
</p>
<p>And because of Yale, when he comes around, he'll make a darn good lawyer.</p>
<p>This thread reminds me of what my S said when he finished his visit and tour of Harvard last fall -- "who wants to spend four years with a bunch of people who are so certain they're better than everyone else that they're eager to talk about non-stop?"</p>
<p>So he got in as a lax recruit at W & L?</p>
<p>Yes - thanks for the confirmatory condescension! And since he plays lacrosse, did not aspire to Harvard, and probably would not have been accepted if he did, no doubt you'll not hesitate to disregard his reaction. And that he is pleased to be going to his first choice school on a full tuition academic scholarship, having turned down other academic scholarships at UVa, Vanderbilt, etc. And that comments like yours explain why, if there's a lid for every pot, not everyone prays for theirs to be crimson.</p>
<p>Stop projecting. </p>
<p>I'm a big lax fan. </p>
<p>W & L is a fine school at the Division III level, where I realize athletic scholarships, as such, are not offered, and I simply noted that your son was going there, as you have previously informed us. </p>
<p>Is he the kid from Cockeysville, or the kid from Gilman?</p>
<p>I have no idea whether he applied to Harvard or not, although you seem to think he wouldn't have been accepted if he had, which makes it more comforting to diss the place, eh?</p>
<p>Harvard lax did make it into the NCAA Div. 1 playoffs this year, however, so stop "condescending"!!</p>
<hr>
<p>Here are the W & L lax recruits for next year... is your son among those they recruited? </p>
<p>3 Mancuso, Max Northport NY Northport NY Attack R Washington & Lee
364 3 Smyth, Francis Cockeysville MD St. Paul's School MD Defense R Washington & Lee
523 3 Mason, Matt Gladwyne PA St. Mark's School MA Goalie R Washington & Lee
752 3 Bartlett, Logan Summit NJ Pingry School NJ Midfield R Washington & Lee
804 3 Colpini, Austin Carrollton GA McCallie School TN Attack R Washington & Lee
843 3 Feeney, Kevin Summit NJ Summit NJ Midfield R Washington & Lee
847 3 Hoffman, Deets Houston TX St. John's School TX Midfield R Washington & Lee
848 3 Keigler, Will Timonium MD Gilman School MD Attack R Washington & Lee
1073 3 Assapimonwait, Drew Louisville KY Trinity KY LSM/Defense U Washington & Lee</p>
<p>I note that you say your son turned down "UVa, Vanderbilt, etc." Is this because he found their students as offensive as the Harvard students, or because he simply didn't think he could play lax at the Div. 1 level, and may not have been recruitable there?</p>
<p>Lacrosse did not drive his decision on where to apply - Vanderbilt has only club lax for example. He had no interest in Div I, and did not return recruiting letters from those schools (Harvard was not among them!), or from most of the 50+ Div II and III schools who also contacted him. He decided where he was interested in going to school and applied there. For example, he declined Swarthmore's persistent contacts, instead pursuing the Jefferson Scholarship at UVa through the finals, with no contact at all to the lax coach. He picked W&L as his first choice, even if he never plays. He did not wish to be treated as a lax recruit, so he is not on your LaxPower list. Most importantly to him, he will be a George Washington Honor Scholar at a school he is as excited about attending as you undoubtedly were about Harvard. </p>
<p>He has a school friend who is in his second year at Harvard, for whom he has great admiration and affection. But of all the schools he visited, he had only the one experience with admissions officers and students who spent most of their time and energy on "status." When he asked students on campus whether they were having any fun, not one gave an immediate and unqualified yes -- in notable contrast to reactions he got on other campuses.</p>
<p>That was his experience. Reading this thread -- and in particular your remarks about Harvard's worthy competitors -- simply reminded me of it. End of story.</p>
<p>My impression of W & L - admittedly colored by guidebook reports - is that it is a "bastion of southern tradition", politically conservative, heavily caucasian, dominated by frats and sororities to an extraordinary degree, and a high-ranking regular on lists of "party schools", schools with "lots of beer", and "lots of hard liquor".</p>
<p>For some Southern white kids, it sounds like the next best thing to heaven! (Not exactly Swarthmore!!)</p>
<p>Unlike yours, my son's perceptions reflect his personal experience in visiting campus. </p>
<p>To the extent your synopsis of W&L is admittedly premised on guidebooks, I wonder why, having obviously read these, you failed to mention W&L's reputation and PR ranking (higher than Harvard's, if you can believe that) relating to student satisfaction with professors, overall undergrad experience, school administration, and campus beauty? </p>
<p>My initial one sentence post, to which you inexplicably responded in such personal detail, was not intended to compare Harvard to any other school, that being exactly what turned my son off about his experience there. Now that you have turned that simple observation into a critique listing only selected stereotypes regarding yet another school, I rest my case.</p>
<p>I was merely trying to understand the basis for your son's choice among the schools which admitted him. Given the primacy of "social life" among the factors in his decision-making, it is easy to see that he chose the place with the right "fit" for him.</p>
<p>Byerly,</p>
<p>My son is putting a primacy on "social life" right now in his evaluation of the top three schools and I can't say that that is necessarily a bad way of looking at the choice. In my son's case he's just regular brilliant, no sports, no arts, nothing that makes one school an obvious choice over another. He's an intended Classics major and visited the Classics departments at the three schools, met with professors, and sat in on classes. He was most impressed with the Yale class, followed by Harvard. But he certainly could tell that he'd have a good experience at all three schools for this major. The difference for him is simple -- he's an obvious candidate for Harvard -- he's brilliant, confident, arrogant, focused, driven, etc. So he questions whether going to a school full of him would be a growing, maturing, life changing experiece or whether he should add "fun" to the equation. That's what he's struggling with as the November decision date looms.</p>
<p>Well its certainly important to visit - several times if possible - if you are torn between several schools. </p>
<p>No two kid decide on the same basis, although there is an observable, historic pattern among those with the same choices open to them.</p>
<p>Byerly, that's a very neat link! I'd never really taken a close look at it before. I wish I understood more of the formulas, but so it goes.</p>
<p>In any event, you mentioned an "observable, historical, pattern among those with the same choices open to them." I'd just like to point out that if BurnThis's son is interested in the humanities (and the classics are a branch of the humanities, if I'm not mistaken) the "historical pattern" shows a top preference for Yale and a third preference for Harvard (see table on page 45). Moreover, the study adds on page 44 that "while most changes of a small number of rank places should be ignored because the rank ordering is imprecise, this one should not be because the analog of statistical significance suggests that place-trading between Harvard and Yale is meaningful."</p>
<p>Frankly, I still wouldn't listen to this survey at all when making one's college decision. I'm a big believer in individual tastes. Sure 75 people might prefer Harvard to Yale while only 25 prefer Yale to Harvard, but that doesn't mean those 25 made the wrong choice.</p>
<p>Best,
DMW</p>
<p>P.S. On a separate note - Byerly, I don't know how old your 75%/25% cross-admit preference is, but a shorthand estimate seems to hold it up for this year as well. The USA Today Academic First Team had 9 to Harvard and 3 to Yale. Since I think it's reasonable to assume that those first teamers could go anywhere in the country, including Harvard or Yale should they choose, 9/12 chose Harvard while 3/12 chose Yale. That's exactly 75%/25%. Uncanny!</p>
<p>The precise cross-admit numbers are, of course, highly sensitive, and seldom make it into print, although there are many recent citations to confident assertions coming out of Cambridge that 3 out of for common admits to Harvard and its leading "competitors" - Stanford, MIT, Yale and Princeton - enroll at Harvard.</p>
<p>What is intriguing is how slow to change the cross-admit ratios are.</p>
<p>A 1985 "expose" cited cross-admit numbers for Princeton which seem not unlike those you might see today, 20 years later..</p>