<p>I don't understand how the cross-admit number is relevant at all to the quality of the institution. It is merely a statistic of the choice made by kids who have attended neither schools. I believe cross-admits at such elite schools make their decisions based on factors such as which school has the right "vibe". Is that any reflection on the quality of the institution? I wouldn't think so. Also, making a decision based on cross-admit numbers is pure stupidity.</p>
<p>Well, I think that's a pretty silly remark indeed.</p>
<p>That's like saying its stupid to read Edmunds before you buy a used car, or to refusing read the online reviews before buying a laptop.</p>
<p>Anybody would have to be out of his mind to ignore the informed judgement made by earlier "customers."</p>
<p>You say you "believe" students make their decision based on whether a school has "the right vibe". Oh??? What survey told you that?</p>
<p>The best evidence is that top students are drawn to schools which already have a critical mass of top students. They want, for the most part, to be among their peers.</p>
<p>Like it or not, its a "winner take all market" and the academic pecking order is fairly rigid.</p>
<p>I think it's a ridiculous assertion to think that most college choices are made based on recommendations by previous alumni. Besides how many of those alumni have attended both schools? It's not like reading a review because there is no basis for comparison. I'm sure you realize college selection is not like a traditional market or subject to the laws of supply and demand.</p>
<p>Furthermore, I don't think even you would make the claim that there is a measurable difference in quality of students at Harvard, Yale, Princeton and Stanford.</p>
<p>I suggest you read the links provided in my previous post if you want to understand the dynamics of the "educational market."</p>
<p>Byerly--That's a fairly outrageous statement ("it's a winner take all market") to make in connection with college education in the US, but I think that it unfortunately defines you and your personal philosophy quite well. So often on these boards you feel the need to attack anyone who claims that some other school has or has done something that might be equal to or better than Harvard. This ranges from nasty comments about Joey Cheek's personal motives, to negative comments about Princeton's study abroad program, to immediately posting a story about Harvard in the same thread whenever someone posts a nice story about a student at Princeton or Yale.</p>
<p>I do not believe that education in the US is a winner take all proposition. Harvard is an excellent school, as are Princeton, Yale and any number of other schools. There are many reasons why students might choose to go to one school over another and there are many excellent students out there. Kids who are Intel winners or who choose to apply for the USA Today Academic All-Star team are more driven generally, but I would not necessarily say they will achieve more or are somehow "better" than other students. Many of the most impressive people in America (Bill Gates) didn't complete college and some rather amazing characters didn't attend ivy league schools. In addition, although I don't want to get into a political discussion, many of the people that I consider least impressive attended Ivy League schools.</p>
<p>At any number of schools, the quality of the students is incredibly impressive these days. I believe that Haukim is correct. Decisions about where to go to school should be based on academics, location, fit etc., but I would think that cross-admit preferences would rank very low on the list, if at all.</p>
<p>Actually if you look at the available numbers carefully, Yale alumni are more successful than Harvard alumni (later in life) at garnering the top positions in their fields. Read some of Gary Glen Price's studies, for example. As an anecdote, consider the fact that 4 of the past 6 Presidents went to Yale, that Yale has produced a candidate for the White House in every U.S. election since 1972. The same pattern appears to hold across all industries, from nonprofits to government, entertainment, science and business. This is specific to Harvard & Yale but the wider pattern is that smaller, more LAC-like schools (such as Yale, Princeton, Swarthmore, etc.) produce much more successful alumni, on a per capita basis, than larger universities such as Berkeley, Texas, Penn, etc.</p>
<p>And the "cross admit" numbers that Byerly keeps touting are actually quite dated (one was from 1985!); for two of the past three years Yale has actually been more selective than Harvard, and from what I've seen has recently been getting much stronger students, too. This year, Yale students won 3 Rhodes and 4 Marshall scholarships, while no other Ivy (including Harvard) had more than 1 Rhodes or more than 2 Marshalls.</p>
<p>Quantifying success based on future income, PhDs, number of CEOs, etc may be good fodder for debate, but it is very narrow thinking. To define success that way is EXACTLY what is wrong with the whole ranking thing. For example, to say that a school is better because it produces more fortune 500 CEOs is the exact opposite of what many people feel is successful. Maybe we should have some other measurements? How about divorce rates? Or the number of hours people spend with their children? Or the number of hours/dollars they spend on community service? </p>
<p>The quality of a college is not an objective measurement and it is silly to try and make it seem rational and statistical. Because a school attracts the best (narrowly defined by ETS) students does not mean that graduates are successful. Many people equate success with money and think being #1 means being the best. Ford Motor Company continues to market itself as #1 in Trucks even though the market for gas guzzling hogs is diminishing and Ford is in deep trouble because they cant retool fast enough to compete with new products. </p>
<p>Some people dont buy into the #1 marketing. They think differently and therefore have other criteria to define their own success and what they want in a college; like having intellectual stimulation, respectful and long-lasting relationships, an appreciation for cultural, social and economic diversity, a commitment to having a positive impact on the world and most importantly, the always underrated HAPPINESS. </p>
<p>Now Byerly, before you get all hot and bothered and accuse me of equating Harvard grads with gas guzzling hogs, let me say HARVARD IS #1. We know. ;)</p>
<p>Harvard is certainly #1 in the popular culture. However, the academic fashionistas seem to favor Brown, Yale, or Stanford, if for no other reason than to show they live above common tastes.</p>
<p>Sure, I agree that success is subjective, and it certainly has more to do with whether or not you were, out of millions of applicants, named one of the 2,000 or so NMSC-sponsored National Merit Scholars in the country (which, by the way, is a category in which Yale leads on a per-capita basis), or whether or not you are Bill Clinton for that matter. But, just for the sake of argument, what do you think of these measurements of "success"?</p>
<p>Yale Alumni Magazine subscriber data from Research USA/BPA Worldwide, April 2006. I have this data because I have connections at a major advertising agency. When you read the following, you understand why Rolls Royce advertises in this magazine.</p>
<p>Circulation: 130,000 Yale alumni (100% of Yale alumni automatically receive this magazine)
Median age: 54, 76% married, 28% with kids still living at home
Average net worth: $2.538 million
Average investment portfolio: $1.5 million
Average household income: $233,610 per year
Average value of primary residence: $880,970, plus 26% own a second home
74% have a graduate degree including 40% who have a doctorate degree
Take 7 round trip flights per year, most travel abroad every year</p>
<p>Regarding the #1 most "popular" choice, how about New York magazine's opinion? <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=193312%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=193312</a> If you just want "fashionistas," you can find them at any major university.</p>
<p>posterx, you're aren't listening to yomama. Do we have to make you stand in the coroner?</p>
<p>
[quote]
posterx, you're aren't listening to yomama
[/quote]
</p>
<p>No, he's listening to yoyoma's elgar e-minor :)</p>
<p>I think some of your stats about the YAM readership are just a TAD off!! ("Median HH asset value is $1,279,000. Average value of primary residence is $400,000.")</p>
<p>By way of comparison, the rate base for Harvard Magazine is 220,000, and the price for a color page of advertising is $17,220 vs $10,800 in the YAM.</p>
<p>the price per advertisement depends largely on the circulation of the magazine. harvard has about 50% more alumni than yale, so it makes sense that its price per advertisement is about 50% higher.</p>
<p>I think we should have a new Forum called "HYP - Battle of the Stats". And the only people allowed to post will be Byerly, posterX and f.scottie. And they can debate and spin statistics all-the-live-long day. But wait, I'm going to STOP saying "HYP" all the time. On Mondays and Thursdays I will say "PYH" and on Tuesdays and Fridays I will say "YPH" and on Wednesdays and Saturdays I will say "HPY". And on Sundays there will be only "H" because, after all, HARVARD IS #1.</p>
<p>Byerly, the magazine has clearly not updated its figures since circulation was recently increased to 100% of alumni this past year. The old figures do not reflect that. Request them for yourself and you will see.</p>
<p>You are incorrect. Check the figures again. Based on 135,000.</p>
<p>At what point does a higher SAT score not help much re improving odds for admission to the Ivies, especially HYP[S]? I'd say at 1500 or above, or 2300/2400 based on what I've seen. Or maybe, to put it another way, below that counts against an applicant. Any stats on this? I saw something at Penn that suggest the number there is more like 1400.</p>
<p>"The Early Admissions Game" discusses this phenomenon, and presents stats for selected schools.</p>
<p>In an effort to get back to a reasonable comparison....
How would you compare the three schools in History, Classical Studies, Philosophy and Political Science?</p>
<p>For political science: <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showpost.php?p=2466272&postcount=19%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showpost.php?p=2466272&postcount=19</a></p>
<p>History: Yale and Oxford are the best places in the world to study history. Just take the U.S. News ranking, give each school in the subrankings an average weighted score, and you'll see Yale ranks more than two times better than any other university in the country.</p>
<p>Classics/Philosophy: All three have very highly-regarded undergraduate programs. Rankings aren't as useful in these areas, because they tend to be smaller and focus on many different areas. Leiter has a "Philosophical Gourmet" report that is the only widely-used ranking in this area.</p>