<p>So I've done some research on this, but am just trying to get more opinions. The financial aid is around the same for both, so that is not a factor. </p>
<p>My intended major is biology, and I will most likely pursue a pre-med path. What are your guys opinions on which school has a better pre med program (counselors, etc.). Also I have looked at the course catalog for both, but does anyone have any input on which has more interesting classes? Classes other than just Biology, European History.</p>
<p>Also what about class discussions? Are class discussions more prevalent at Stanford than at Yale, or vice versa?</p>
<p>I’d say Yale almost certainly has a better pre-med program than Stanford … Yale has an acceptance rate of 90%+, Stanford’s is more around 70%+. Considering they likely have students of similar caliber, I’d think that this gap has a lot to do with the great pre-med advising at Yale.</p>
<p>Also, my personal opinion is that Yale would be much more interesting if you have interests outside of science as well. Yale has top notch humanities programs with extremely engaging professors, as well as the most talented group of instrumental musicians, singers, actors, artists, etc. at any university that isn’t a conservatory, which makes for a wonderful overall experience. The lack of an arts presence at Stanford was something that bothered me; even if you’re not an artsy person yourself, plays, a capella shows, etc. are always fun to go to!</p>
<p>As for class discussions, Yale classes are super small and foster discussion in that way (not sure about Stanford). I’ve taken 10 classes so far, class sizes are as follows: 50, 50, 40, 30, 20, 20, 15, 10, 10, 10. Considering the fact that the 50’s are both organic chemistry and the 30 and 40 are multivariable calc and linear algebra, all extremely widely taken classes, the sizes are very small :)</p>
<p>I was exactly like you, a pre-med debating between Yale and Stanford. I chose Yale for a number of reasons:</p>
<p>1) Duck syndrome. Speaking to Stanford students, I was told that this wasn’t simply a myth. The quarter system moves very rapidly, and students seem to learn material much faster. No Yalie, on the other hand, complained of any such thing. Sure, things get stressful, but not anything you can’t handle. I think this is partially mediated by the semester system.</p>
<p>2) Humanities. Stanford’s IHUM gets a terrible rep, and SLE is somewhat ostracized. Yale’s atmosphere is much more conducive and appreciative of the humanities.</p>
<p>3) Inflation. Apparently, Stanford’s grade inflation isn’t all it’s cooked up to be. It seems to be artificially inflated by the existence of 4.3’s, but Yale supposedly has better curves. I can’t be too confident about this point since I’ve only taken classes here, but it’s what my friends at Stanford and I concluded upon comparing our classes. Regardless, as a soulless pre-med, GPA is important. That, and I heard that Yale does better in terms of getting its students into med schools (not sure how true this is).</p>
<p>4) Campus. I’m not talking about the physical campus/weather (which Stanford takes, hands down), but rather the different ambiance. Stanford is more technological/entrepreneurial, while Yale is more traditional/artsy/intellectual.</p>
<p>5) Courses. Yale simply had more interesting courses that appealed to me. We’re talking perhaps the strongest history, polisci, psychology and English departments in the nation. Stanford’s strength is definitely concentrated in its sciences, while Yale’s is spread out among many different humanities-related fields. If you’re interested in European history, Yale boasts big names like John Hare, John Merriman, John Gaddis (lots of John’s), all of whom are preeminent scholars in their fields.</p>
<p>6) Residential colleges. The Yale community is simply more tight-knit. The campus is much more centralized (compared to Stanford’s sprawling campus that requires biking to class). You live with the same people for 4 years, leading you to form very close bonds (compared to switching dorms every year at Stanford). The spirit is simply more tangible at Yale.</p>
<p>There are plenty of Yale v. Stanford threads. You’ll find good info. If I may add:</p>
<p>Palo Alto weather is great but the physical size of the campus was a huge turn off versus the cozy size of Yale. This, plus the lack of a comparable Residential College system, produces a much less close knit community. Yale slam dunks Stanford on this. It’s not even close.</p>
<p>Don’t let pre-med acceptance rates influence your decision. For one, I would say that more of Stanford’s pre-meds majored in a harder STEM field rather than take the easy route out and have a high GPA. I’ve heard that the pre-med acceptance rate of human biology majors is above 90% (humbio has a ton of premeds, probably the most popular among pre-meds, and you get a BA in it, not a BS, as you do in biology). But more importantly, med school acceptance rates are completely dependent on how risky students are applying, i.e. if a student applies to MD/PhD programs (which are much harder to get into than MD programs) or if a student doesn’t want to attend a med school that would be more of a “safe bet,” and they don’t get into a single school, then it brings the averages % down. If a student applies to a bunch of med schools but only gets into one (even if they have no intention of going there because it’s a random, unknown med school, and would rather apply again the next year), they’re still counted in the % of “successful” applicants. Pre-med advising is comparable at each. </p>
<p>The duck syndrome at Stanford does not mean that students are “more stressed.” Rather, they’re less inclined to show it. That doesn’t mean that they don’t complain just as much as anyone, because students do complain a lot. Rather, they tend not to want to show it if they’re struggling or having especial difficulty. IMO, this isn’t any different at other colleges, but it’s brought up more about Stanford because of that supposed “laid-back” attitude that we have in California.</p>
<p>I don’t know what’s meant by “ostracized” in SLE. People who do SLE love it; it’s Stanford’s equivalent of DS. IHUM doesn’t matter, because Stanford’s currently doing an overhaul of its undergraduate curriculum, and the committee’s final recommendation is supposed to come soon.</p>
<p>At Stanford, some majors are more inflated than others. I’m sure this is true at Yale.</p>
<p>It’s also hard not to find courses to like at Stanford when it offers thousands of courses every quarter. (About 1500 are listed as having undergraduates in them, but undergraduates are welcome to take most graduate-level courses.) </p>
<p>To the OP: you’ll have to decide for yourself whether the culture of each appeals to you, but I’ll add that not all like the residential college system. That was actually one of the reasons that I turned down Yale–I really didn’t like the residential college system.</p>
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<p>By the way, perhaps you just weren’t aware, but Stanford’s strength is not concentrated in the sciences. Yes, it’s top in STEM fields, but Stanford’s ranked in the top 5 in the world both for social sciences and for humanities–both ahead of Yale. </p>
<p>Also, it’s ludicrous to suggest that you’re surrounded by only science types at Stanford. More than 50% of the degrees conferred are in the social sciences and humanities.</p>
<p>The only general area of study that Yale beats Stanford at is the arts (of course this is not to say that there aren’t fields that Yale and Stanford are equal in). But just because Stanford isn’t top in the arts doesn’t mean that it doesn’t have great arts shows. A cappella is very popular on campus (if you go to Admit Weekend, you’ll see many a cappella shows–they come to dorms, and there’s the Fro Show which is an a cappella show that all the admits go to). There are tons of performances, music or theater or dance, throughout the year. See <a href=“http://arts.stanford.edu%5B/url%5D”>http://arts.stanford.edu</a></p>
<p>By the way, Stanford drama is ranked #2 for theater studies, ahead of Yale’s school of drama programs.</p>
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<p>Stanford is generally ranked #1 in psychology, political science, history, and English (and if not 1, then top 3). </p>
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<p>If by “centralized,” you mean “smaller.” You seem to imply that Stanford’s campus is sparse (it isn’t)–the only reason that it’s larger is that it has more buildings, more facilities, and of course more people (faculty, staff, and students). If Yale were top 5 or top 10 in almost every discipline like Stanford is, Yale would also have a comparably large campus.</p>
<p>I never understood why some people (at other schools) complain about Stanford’s larger campus. The alternative is to offer fewer programs; or to build super-super-tall buildings (and even then, people would complain about all the stairs they have to climb). The buildings as they are are already tall enough.</p>
<p>Stop looking at the course catalog or trying to determine whether there are more or less class discussions. Start thinking about what you prefer in terms of weather, physical layout of the campus, and social organization. </p>
<p>The two colleges are practically identical in terms of academic quality. They are worlds apart in many other aspects.</p>
<p>If you feel phantasmagoric’s list of rankings blow Yale off your radar, so be it. I don’t put much weight to “lists” anyways (I think USNWR is crap). But like vicarious says, you should ask yourself what’s most important to you. For me, the close knit feel of the residential college system was vastly superior to my Stanford girlfriend’s smallish group of friends. I also knew a swimmer there whose entire retinue was the swim team – very little time to deeply interact with others. That’s just nearly impossible at yale. </p>
<p>As for discussions: I can only repeat anecdotes from others who have taught at Yale and other top colleges – they seem to report that Yalies are definitely more engaging intellectually with one another. I found it to be so. Plz don’t put a ton into this statement as I can’t really speak about the discussion atmosphere at other colleges.</p>
<p>Best of luck to you. You have a nice dilemma. I’m sure either Stanford or Yale will get a great freshman.</p>
<p>For me, Stanford is laid-back and boring. Yale is laid-back, but still passionate and a lot of fun. Yes, I had the same choice to make, yes, I stayed at both campuses.</p>
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<p>I agree, let the OP choose the culture he/she likes better. FWIW, I’d say you’re in the minority as someone who doesn’t like the residential college system.</p>
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<p>The only reasons I can ever find for Stanford being “better” than Yale are based on rankings. Do you really think Stanford’s ranking in the humanities and social sciences (and even sciences, for that matter) makes it a much better school than Yale for those disciplines? I’d venture to say that you might even have a better experience doing science at Yale than at Stanford based on the <em>extreme</em> availability of research opportunities. This is not necessarily true, of course, but based on only rankings some of the truly important factors to one’s experience (i.e. research opportunities) are lost.</p>
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<p>Stanford’s art shows are great until you realize that there are better ones … although I admit I’m biased as a musician and it might not make a difference to most people. A cappella might be popular at Stanford, but Yale flourishes in all art forms. For instance, Yale has at least 5 popular orchestras, compared to 1 or 2 at most schools, and the YSO is THE most talented undergraduate orchestra out there outside of actual conservatories (though all the musicians in the group at conservatory-level). The presence of one of the best graduate music schools in the world (free concerts) also helps. Music professor I talked to from top conservatory: “Stanford offers little to nothing in the arts as far as I’m concerned.”</p>
<p>Yale blows Stanford out of the water in the arts. I admittedly fell asleep during the Stanford Orchestra concert and felt extremely awkward when only half of the band showed up to rehearsal when I visited.</p>
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<p>I thought Stanford’s campus was sparse. Also, it’s ludicrous to suggest that more buildings and more people = better academics. Really? Ex. Yale Law School and Yale School of Music are both one building, but tops in their disciplines. Just because a school has less faculty, a smaller student body, and less buildings doesn’t mean it’s worse LOL. If anything, more buildings, faculty, etc. means more emphasis on research (hint: graduate school) and less on a close-knit undergraduate community like Yale.</p>
<p>Also, the last time I checked the rankings, Yale is near or in the top 10 in pretty much every field minus engineering. There’s also this school called Harvard that’s also “top 5 or top 10 in almost every discipline like Stanford is” and the last time I checked, their campus still feels a lot more compact than Stanford’s does. In fact, I’m pretty sure every top-ranked school other than Berkeley is smaller than Stanford.</p>
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I don’t endorse rankings, but here they are. I listed all disciplines I could find that USNWR ranks (except comp sci and engineering since they are not quite as well regarded there, but that’s only 2 in any case).</p>
<p>Yale (USNWR)
Biological Sciences - #7
Chemistry - #13
Mathematics - #10
Physics - #11
Economics - #6
English - #2
History - #1
Political Science - #5
Psychology - #3
Fine Arts - #2
Law - #1
Medicine - #5
Business - #10</p>
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<p>I hope you realize how silly it sounds to correlate buildings and programs. I’m pretty sure Yale has every program Stanford does minus some of the engineering disciplines, which surely does not account for the extreme size difference.</p>
<p>In the end, it’s up to the OP to decide on which culture he/she likes better. I personally think Yale and Stanford are equal academically, though I found Yale’s atmosphere much more passionate and close-knit. Also, I know I put a huge emphasis on arts when the OP might not even be interested in it, mainly because it was such an important aspect of my own decision, but it also reflects a more intellectual atmosphere at Yale (not intellectual like snobby intellectual, just more of an emphasis on … culture I guess).</p>
<p>Stanford has much better weather, remember that, it could be more important than you think. Also, the Stanford Hospital is right near main campus, and it’s one of the best, so it may be possible to get internships/research there, which could be an amazing opportunity for a premed student…</p>
<p>^ The nod to Palo Alto weather – that’s a given (I *loved *the weather!!!). As for perhaps getting good research opps, that’s cool too. My GF at the time did very important work in a cancer lab – went on to get her MS and later an MD.</p>
<p>But at yale, cool research opps are practically guaranteed – I suspect somewhat due to the fewer science majors among the undergrads. Helpful undergrads are fewer so they command better choice in research opps. I recall someone saying that 95% of bio majors had significant research.</p>
<p>If you want to do medicine (there is absolutely no doubt in your mind) go to Yale. I have heard of stanford GPA causing issues for people for getting into high profile schools. Our tour guide in Yale last year was headed to Columbia MD/PhD program in two weeks at Columbia (that was her last tour) and she started as an engineering major at Yale and went into this special multisyllable program in Yale in second year and graduated with a masters at the end of 4 years. She was bragging that she took a recommendation from her chemistry professor for Columbia who ended up winning the nobel prize two weeks after she turned in her application.</p>
<p>I met another guy at my kid’s school college day who is going to Baylor doing MD/PhD and graduated probably 4-5 years ago and was representing Yale. I met a lady two years ago in college day who also went to Yale and was doing an MD at Baylor (when they joined Baylor, it was a top 10-12 program). </p>
<p>All of this information can be matched by someone who knows similar stories about Stanford students. I dont have a kid in either school and would love to have your problem for my kid next year!</p>
<p>The funny thing about these vague claims of culture is that I can say the same thing about Stanford and Yale, except the opposite.</p>
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<p>You’re probably right. But I’ll add that IMO, I think more people think they’ll like the residential college system when they see the “pretty buildings.” But the idea of spending my time as an undergraduate in one single residence (save for freshman year) esp. if I don’t like the residence, or the people, or the location, is pretty undesirable, to me. </p>
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<p>I never said that. You seem to have difficulty distinguishing correction of fact (that Yale is better in humanities and social sciences) with judgments of quality. I did say that Stanford was ahead of Yale in those rankings of social sciences/humanities (objective fact)–you took from that that I’m saying Stanford is better for them. Rather, I’m dispelling the notion that Stanford is inferior there. But Yale is ranked close behind anyway, so it doesn’t make a difference.</p>
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<p>I would actually say the opposite. These rankings are largely based on research productivity–at the very least, the other factors which you consider are heavily correlated with research productivity. Stanford may have more students, but it has more faculty and as a result, more grad students, more postdocs, and more research associates. Undergrads can do research with all these people.</p>
<p>Again, I’m not saying one is better than the other–I’m just giving the alternative perspective.</p>
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<p>I never said it didn’t (in fact, I explicitly said Yale beats Stanford at the arts; in another thread, I even said, “Yale:engineering :: Stanford:arts”). Again, I was correcting your statement “The **lack **of an arts presence” – lack means absence. That is untrue for Stanford. It would be like me saying, “The lack of engineering at Yale” – you would be tempted to correct that, I’m sure.</p>
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<p>I spend a lot more time on this campus and can tell you it isn’t. Yale’s was no more dense than Stanford’s. But we can let others decide:</p>
<p>I was not suggesting that. Again, you show difficulty seeing claims which don’t praise Yale as anything less than an attack on Yale. I was showing why Stanford has a larger campus–because there are many more people on it. The more people you have, the more housing you need, in addition to office space, lab space, meeting room space, etc. All the academic resources, in terms of space, must increase when you have more people.</p>
<p>I’ll add, again, that larger does not necessarily mean better. Harvard law and business are both much larger than Stanford’s or Yale’s–but they measure up quite well. However, size is correlated with perceived quality: when you have more people within a given field, you have a greater diversity of topics being researched and taught (why Stanford offers so many courses, in fact), so more depth within the breadth. A CS professor at JHU actually said of this topic:</p>
<p>Except for the fact that Harvard’s campus is spread out over several different areas (various parts of Cambridge in addition to the central part, and in Boston, different neighborhoods of Allston, Longwood, etc.). :p</p>
<p>Harvard has a comparably large campus. Actually, it has a much larger one than Stanford–Stanford’s around 15 million sq ft, Harvard something like 24 million sq ft.</p>
<p>You really don’t want to make claims that are based on “hmm this is kind of what seemed like to me” – or as you say, “feels a lot more compact.” That’s probably because Harvard is urban and integrated into its environment and would feel that way, so I don’t blame you. Just a guess, but that’s also probably why you “feel” the density is different at Yale.</p>
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<p>I’m not trying to “correlate” the two–rather, the two are inextricably linked. I am obviously not saying that you can’t have the same number of programs (breadth) in a smaller space (that’s either a real misunderstanding, or you’re intentionally straw-manning my points now). But as I thought was clear, in order to become one of the top places for a department/program (depth), you need to expand in space. Remember that it’s not just the department that comes with academic expansion, but various institutes, centers, laboratories, and staff spaces associated with it or the school it’s in.</p>
<p>Thus, the reason that Stanford has so many buildings (close to 700 major buildings on campus) is that it achieves breadth and depth across many disciplines. That’s why most departments and programs have their own building (mostly connected in quads and such). The Stanford map above shows you what departments reside where.</p>
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<p>By the way, this was not my intent. My point, instead, was to correct some off assumptions and in some cases downright lies about Stanford, e.g. that it’s dominated by science types and you won’t have more social sciences/humanities students around you, that Stanford is weaker than Yale in social sciences/humanities, that its pre-med acceptance rate is indicative of Stanford being “worse” to go to for pre-med, that “duck syndrome” = “more stressed,” and so on.</p>
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<p>I hope you’re not encouraging someone to choose schools based on “hearsay.” I could say I heard such-and-such about how Yale treats sexual assault cases. But that’s neither useful nor informative.</p>
<p>IMHO it is not the density of buildings but rather the fact that Stanford exists in a bubble that is pretty isolated from the rest of Palo Alto (which is anyway not a particularly interesting city for undergraduates). Yale’s campus interfaces very intimately with New Haven. You could catch a bite to eat at a cafe or restaurant between classes or you could walk over to any number of shops or other businesses. This ensures you encounter the real world a lot more as a Yale student. Some people like that, others don’t. It is really a personal choice.</p>
<p>Okay, I suppose I misunderstood your intentions, though typically quoting rankings that place Stanford higher than Yale and mentioning that Yale has less top 5 or top 10 programs than Stanford does comes off as saying one is superior to the other.</p>
<p>^ That’s true–at first I thought you were completing jumping the gun, then looked back at what I’d said (“both ahead of Yale”), and realized that it wasn’t completely off to assume that I was saying Stanford’s better, though I really was just trying to correct the misunderstanding that Stanford’s inferior there.</p>
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<p>True, Stanford is distinct from its surroundings, but as you said, some would want that, some wouldn’t. I myself really wanted an urban school, given that I’m from a rural area, but chose Stanford for a variety of reasons that ended up being more important than its location (like strength in my major). However, I don’t think it’s accurate to say that Stanford students are therefore not getting a “taste of the real world,” especially since students go off campus a lot, and since Stanford isn’t so much “separated” by some barrier as that it’s not integrated with the more urban areas around it (like downtown Palo Alto). Turns out I really like that Stanford has set up its own microcosm, with the shopping center in the northwest part of campus, athletic facilities in the northeast, housing surrounding the central part, etc. It’s very neat and well-planned.</p>
<p>Thank you everyone for all the help so far!!</p>
<p>phanta, how often would you say students go off campus? Like do students take regular trips to San Francisco, or is it more a once in a blue moon thing? And what about Berkeley, do any Stanford students head up to Berkeley occasionally for parties/events?</p>
<p>I will throw out one other factor to consider: which school will be a bigger hassle for you and your parents to transport you and your stuff to? If you can get to one of them by car in a reasonable amount of time, that’s a pretty significant advantage.</p>
<p>It really varies by the students. Some students like to stay on campus, and going to SF is a “once in a blue moon” thing. Many other students, like me, go to SF at least a few times a month. Still others might go once a month. </p>
<p>It’s pretty common to go to downtown Palo Alto, which is decent enough (but not like SF). I know some students go to Berkeley/Oakland sometimes, but it’s not a very frequent thing.</p>