<p>"…He will most likely do something business related so it makes the decision ever harden considering how good Michigan’s business school is…"</p>
<p>
I’m not goldenboy or whoever you think I am. That “flawed” NYT survey has been seen by everyone in College Confidential and has been consulted by every major multinational corporation in the world. My dad at Pfizer read the article as soon as it came out.</p>
<p>" That “flawed” NYT survey has been seen by everyone in College Confidential…"</p>
<p>Particularly by posers with 15 posts…</p>
<p>rjk - you seem to have an agenda and just ignore all logic. For example, you include the following quote to prove the applicant wants to study business:</p>
<p>"…He will most likely do something business related so it makes the decision ever harden considering how good Michigan’s business school is…"</p>
<p>There’s a big difference between wanting to do something business related and wanting to studying business. I think the quote below shows that the presence of a b-school, or the lack thereof, is not the dominant factor in the decision:</p>
<p>“and is having a hard time deciding due to financial reasons”</p>
<p>Anyway, I have no dog in this fight. I got surprised and interested after browsing and seeing some comments by senior members that were so easily refuted. But that’s enough for me, I’m outta here.</p>
<p>“I got surprised and interested after browsing and seeing some comments by senior members that were so easily refuted.”</p>
<p>You mean like suggesting it might be worth it for an 18 year old to go into huge debt for an undergraduate education at a school that is modestly better than his instate option? You sure “refuted” that one well. It doesn’t matter anyway, since you are “outa here.”</p>
<p>“Anyone know how many Yale grads call Novi, Michigan home?”</p>
<p>I know a Michigan grad who called Novi home:</p>
<p><a href=“Sanjay Gupta - Wikipedia”>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanjay_Gupta</a></p>
<p>Some of the homes are quite nice:</p>
<p><a href=“What is most expensive Novi Home for sale Feb 2014 | Novi, MI Patch”>What is most expensive Novi Home for sale Feb 2014 | Novi, MI Patch;
<p>Not sure what your fixation is with Novi. It is a perfectly nice suburb in Oakland County where I haven’t lived in over ten years. Of course as a supposedly high school senior, I’m sure you have accomplished a lot in life so far…</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>You don’t have to turn a blind eye to Michigan’s faults, but your attitude on this board suggests something other than confidence in your choice. </p>
<p>The whole world does not wish to live on the East Coast. LOL </p>
<p>It would be very crowded. ;)</p>
<p>bluebound18 - as I posted on the last ridiculous thread comparing UM to NYU, it must be nice to be 18 and know everything. </p>
<p>"As far as Michigan being rated 6-20, I can’t seem to find any undergraduate rankings that put it in that range. On USNWR it’s #28, Forbes ranks it #30, Business Insider rates it #20.</p>
<p>Actually,that is not accurate. If anything, most undergraduate rankings have Michigan ranked among the top 20, including Forbes. Forbes ranks Michigan #30 overall, but that includes LACs. Among research universities (and I was only talking about research universities when I said Michigan would be rated among the top 20), Michigan is actually #20 according to Forbes, not that I think highly of the publication. As you pointed out, Business Insider, which you also mentioned, also rates Michigan #20. Washington Monthly ranks Michigan #12. Jack Gourman ranks Michigan among the top 5 undergraduate institutions in the US. In fact, the USNWR is the only ranking that I know of that ranks Michigan out of the top 20. The only constant between all those rankings is that none of them is reliable. </p>
<p>The USNWR has a methodology designed with private universities in mind. For example:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>The USNWR does not include state appropriations and their impact on financial aid in their Financial Resources Ranking. Michigan’s financial standing is clearly among the top 15 in the US, arguably among the top 10. Its endowment of $8.4 billion is 6th largest in the land. When you factor in the $300 million in state appropriations, it is like adding $6 billion to the endowment. Other than HYPS, I cannot think of any university that has more financial resources than Michigan. Even on a per student basis, Michigan would be among the top 15 (with no real difference separating #10 from #15), and that would not take economies of scale and efficiencies into account. </p></li>
<li><p>Alumni donation rates. Public universities cannot solicit their alumni as aggressively as private universities do. Until recently, public universities did not even approach alums for donations while elite private universities have done so for ell over 100 years. Given the difference in philosophy and practice, it is not possible to compare public and private universities with each other. That being said, in recent years, Michigan has been blessed with generous donations from alums. In fact, if one were to look at donation size per donor, or even total donations per alum, Michigan would probably be among the top 10 or top 20. But given the differences in approach to soliciting donations…and reporting them, this criterion should not be part of any ranking that includes private and public universities.</p></li>
<li><p>Faculty resources rank is one of the most questionable. Private universities take such liberties in reporting class sizes and student to faculty ratios that it is impossible to trust this segment of the ranking. Most private universities pretend that graduate students do not exist and do not include graduate students in their calculations. Having student to faculty ratios in the 6:1 - 8:1 range may seem impressive, but if those universities included graduate students as do public universities, their ratios would increase to 11:1 or 12:1. Still excellent, but no longer impressive.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>There is no doubt that if the USNWR improved its methodology and audited data for accuracy and consistency, public universities like Cal, Michigan and UVa would all be ranked among the top 20. </p>
<p>“The New York Times has it out of the Top 100 Global Universities according to corporate recruiting.”</p>
<p>The link you provided was not based on any survey conducted by the New York Times, it merely posted it. The link you provided above is based on a survey conducted by a French HR consulting firm, and the vast majority of the firms surveyed were European, with a few European-based firms in South America and North America included. The first year the survey was released, MSU was ranked in the top 50 while Michigan was not ranked in the top 100. The second year saw MSU drop out of the top 80 and Michigan jump in the top 100. It is fairly evident that many of those Europeans confused the two and rated MSU under the assumption it was Michigan. Eliminate confusion from the survey and Michigan would be ranked among the top 15 US universities. Not knowing the exact name of the University is not their fault. It is confusing to many Europeans that two universities can have the name “Michigan”. That is not to say that Michigan does not have a very strong reputation in Europe. The Times and the QS rankings, both released by British institutions, rank Michigan among the top 15 US universities. According to the Times, Michigan’s reputation ranking is #12 in the World and #9 in the US. Any US-based corporate recruiters’ ranking would definitely have Michigan among the top 15, if not among the top 10, depending on the industry.</p>
<p>Ironically, the WSJ did conduct a survey on employer sentiment, but I am not sure you will like it. Michigan was ranked #6 according to that survey.</p>
<p><a href=“Best Colleges & Universities - Ranked by Job Recruiters - WSJ”>Best Colleges & Universities - Ranked by Job Recruiters - WSJ;
<p>“Michigan’s graduate programs are top 10, its professional programs are top 15, and its undergrad is top 30. I would say that is a fair assessment of The University of Michigan as an overall institution.”</p>
<p>Not entirely fair. According to all graduate rankings, Michigan would actually be among the top 5 for graduate programs (behind only Cal, Harvard, Stanford and Princeton) and among the top 7 or 8 for professional programs. </p>
<p>For the reasons listed above, there is no undergraduate ranking that I respect, least of all the USNWR. I think Gerhard Casper (Yale-educated scholar, once dean of Chicago Law school and president of Stanford University from 1992-2000 said it best in his letter to the Editor if the USNWR:</p>
<p>“…I am extremely skeptical that the quality of a university - any more than the quality of a magazine - can be measured statistically. However, even if it can, the producers of the U.S. News rankings remain far from discovering the method. Let me offer as prima facie evidence two great public universities: the University of Michigan-Ann Arbor and the University of California-Berkeley. These clearly are among the very best universities in America - one could make a strong argument for either in the top half-dozen. Yet, in the last three years, the U.S. News formula has assigned them ranks that lead many readers to infer that they are second rate: Michigan 21-24-24, and Berkeley 23-26-27.”</p>
<p><a href=“Criticism of College Rankings - September 23, 1996”>http://www.stanford.edu/dept/pres-provost/president/speeches/961206gcfallow.html</a></p>
<p>Dr. Casper’s opinion is fairly standard among the educated elites. Any ranking that has Cal and Michigan ranked out of the top 20 is highly suspicious, not just in academe, but also in most corporate circles. </p>
<p>Since cash flow is a sticking point, and if OP’s friend is intrinsically interested in pursuing business management, Ross is a great choice.
Although Yale, over long term (30 years) horizon provides a slightly better return on investment. $954,300 (Yale) versus $901,400 (Michigan). [<a href=“College Education Value Rankings - PayScale 2013 College ROI Report”>http://www.payscale.com/college-education-value-2013</a>, compare 30 year net ROI column],
IMO, high levels of debt to attend Yale is not worth the mental anguish. Save the money, work a few years & attend Yale (or Stanford, Michigan, …) for MBA. Get the best of both worlds!</p>
<p>I don’t understand that source Trinity. Is it saying that the average student from Michigan is only going to make 900K over 30 years? </p>
<p>^^ “30-Year Net ROI: The Earnings Differential is the difference between the 30 Year Median Pay for a 2012 Bachelor’s Graduate and the Weighted 34-36 Year Median Pay for a 2012 High School Graduate. The cost utilized is the Weighted Total Cost for a Graduate of 2012”
<a href=“College ROI 2013 Methodology”>http://www.payscale.com/data-packages/college-roi-2013/methodology</a></p>
<p>The ROI values that you see are not the total earnings of a college graduate, but rather the current value of future earnings premium over that of a high school graduate (net present value). It is also assuming that the future earnings of college graduates will be similar to the past 30 years’ earnings. Keep in mind that a college student forgoes earnings during the time S/he is in college (opportunity cost), and is subtracted from the overall earnings. </p>
<p>IMO, the only drawback is that the Payscale study does not normalize wage premiums enjoyed by college graduates who are employed in places with high cost of living, which translates into higher wages, and skews the results in favor of schools located in the vicinity of such places. When surveys are done on a large scale (like Payscale), it may be difficult to make such cost of living adjustments in calculating the net ROI since people move around during their career, and onerous to collect such data. </p>
<p>It is ironical while CC readers argue about college rankings, the employers have a different outlook on hiring.
“Survey: Businesses Don’t Care If Their Employees Went to Yale
Employers value applied skills and knowledge in the field more than where a candidate went to school” </p>
<p><a href=“Survey: Businesses Don't Care If Their Employees Went to Yale - The Atlantic”>http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/02/survey-businesses-dont-care-if-their-employees-went-to-yale/284087/</a></p>
<p><a href=“Business Leaders Say Knowledge Trumps College Pedigree”>Business Leaders Say Knowledge Trumps College Pedigree;
<p>Yes, but here are a couple items I pulled out:</p>
<p>“Busteed points out that many top companies still hire from a narrow set of institutions. But the survey points to a greater emphasis on hiring people with specific skills.”</p>
<p>“School rankings have been found to matter when it comes to pay, an effect which rises over time. Graduates of elite private schools in particular get paid more according to a report from the Century Foundation (pdf).”</p>
<p>The survey doesn’t concentrate on positions for new college graduates but all position hires. The results will be different if the question focused on on new college grads and would be vastly different if it focused on some specific orgs such as bulge bracket banks, high end consulting and top end techs (Google, Facebook, etc.)</p>
<p>So it somewhat depends on where your aspirations are for a 1st “real job”. Certainly, positions demanding experience will put less focus on the school. True in all industries.</p>
<p>
Alexandre, can you prove that USNWR doesn’t take into account Endowment Per Capita when calculating the Financial Resources category or is this just a mere conjecture on your part? No one seems to know how the Financial Resources section is calculated since USNWR doesn’t reveal that.</p>
<p>
Your logic doesn’t make sense. I agree that some confusion probably exists but if you average out the fluctutations between Michigan and MSU’s rankings, you would get a combined ranking of a barely top 50 US institution. You can’t just proclaim that Michigan would be top 15 is MSU didn’t exist since MSU shouldn’t be that well known anyway so its presence shouldn’t affect things much.</p>
<p>If Michigan was already ranked in the top 25 and MSU was ranked in the top 50, then an adjusted composite ranking of top 15 would make sense with the MSU confusion removed.</p>
<p>At any rate, all the Ivies, Chicago, Caltech, Duke, Hopkins, Stanford, MIT, UCLA, and Berkeley are all more internationally renowned than UMich. There is simply no denying this.</p>
<p>“At any rate, all the Ivies, Chicago, Caltech, Duke, Hopkins, Stanford, MIT, UCLA, and Berkeley are all more internationally renowned than UMich. There is simply no denying this.”</p>
<p>Sorry goldenboy, but you can leave Duke out of the above list…It isn’t quite there yet.</p>
<p>What, exactly, is the goal of repeated UM bashing on multiple threads? </p>
<p>Seriously. </p>
<p>Is there a point? It distracts. No one is going to post their real names and identifying information to prove they are telling the truth about verifiable information on schools. </p>
<p>This is insane. If you don’t like UM? Don’t attend. </p>
<p>If you don’t like UM? Probably a good idea not to hang out on threads about it.</p>
<p>ennisthemenace and bluebound18 are probably the same poster. Just in the past week, it was already proven that one poster was using different three different pseudonyms to bash on Michigan. Those names have all been banned. </p>
<p>So if someone speaks ill of UMich, then they must be a ■■■■■ eh rjkofnovi? That’s a very dangerous mindset to have.</p>