Yes, I support meritocratic college admissions. No, I am not a racist.

[noreally]

<p>Basing AA on socioeconomic status would evince the same public outcry it did in England.</p>

[Millancad]

<p>

One obvious group has gone through way worse. There’s a Black guy sitting in the oval office right now, but if a Native American manages to become a dentist it’s a huge deal. Anyway the point I’m trying to make is that while I support AA (LogicWarrior just summed up my belief nicely), I have a feeling we’re not gonna need it for Blacks/Hispanics soon. A Bachelor’s degree is becoming pretty common, it’s not just for rich white people anymore…sometime this century, a Bachelor’s degree will become very common, even for Blacks/Hispanics. As for native Americans, I think AA will continue for them for a while.

Definitely Native Americans have gone through worse, they’re the only group that has suffered genocide in America, but arguing that based on a black guy being president doesn’t really work. There has been a Native American VP. Charles Curtis, and though he wasn’t all NatAm, he was as Native American as Obama is black. And let’s not forget that Obama is a 2nd generation African immigrant. They do well, statistically, in America anyway, having higher rates of college education than any other group, a high income, high home ownership rates, etc.</p>

<p>

I can think of one ethnic group that has had way more struggles, for a way longer, than blacks. That ethnic group is the Jews. From the Inquisition to the Holocaust, large batches (in the millions) of Jews have been killed in the gas chambers, torture chambers, etc. Hmmm… so whose had it worse, blacks who were enslaved for just 200 years or Jews who faced discrimination dating all the way back to Rome, and still face it today. Instead of whining like blacks, Jews reacted to the evolutionary pressures, and those people are nothing but scientists, bankers, and media moguls. It seems supporting poor blacks is just making the race weaker.

If we’re really going to start going back to the Romans, any race can “win” in the “Who’s had it worse?” game. Hitler killed 6 million Jews? Well, King Leopold II killed between 8 and 30 million Congoloese. See how ridiculous this can get? It’s not fair to argue that Jews have had struggles for way longer that NatAms or Hispanics or African Americans, because the world was unaware of NatAms for thousands of years while Jews were being persecuted, and the ethnicities now known as African American and Hispanic did not exist. Groups who didn’t exist during the Inquisition couldn’t suffer during it! It’s not because they had it “better,” it’s because they weren’t there!
How successful were Jews when they lived in ghettos? I know that when Italian Americans were mistreated in the early 19th century, they tested as having low IQs, hovering around 80. I wouldn’t be surprised if it were the same for Jewish people.
But anyway, please, let’s focus on America, and on current situations, since AA is stated to be about correcting for current situations, not apologizing for the past.</p>

<p>

Basing AA on socioeconomic status would evince the same public outcry it did in England.

</p>

<p>I doubt it. The USA has a very different history with race and class than basically every European nation.</p>

[JAJdude]

<p>Evolutionary measures- heh, so you’re implying black people didn’t evolve or something? ANd in case you don’t know, not all black people whine about race and things likeof that nature. Some , like myself, simply don’t care about it because it’s not much of an issure. I’m not going to say ‘I’m black, I should apply to Yale or Stanford or Princeton because I’m such’…And I won’t take it for granted that colleges accept me only because I’m black…</p>

<p>That is what a lot of people on this forum seeme to be implying about URM’s…</p>

[fendey516]

<p>Nvm, i’m getting out of this thread.</p>

[StitchInTime]

<p><a href=“%5Burl=http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1063088258-post2.html]#2[/url]”>quote</a> …Learn to keep your head down so you don’t get targetted by nazi-activists.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That was pretty quick: [Godwin’s</a> Law](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin’s_law]Godwin’s”>Godwin's law - Wikipedia)</p>

[happycowlover]

<p>Why is it that everytime someone talks of the struggles of their race, someone accuses them of whining? It’s now disallowed to discuss racial discrimination now?</p>

[ChoklitRain]

<p>because “struggles of my race” in the year 2009 is overplayed and 99.9% of the time is just used as an excuse for personal failures.</p>

[LogicWarrior]

<p>

I can think of one ethnic group that has had way more struggles, for a way longer, than blacks. That ethnic group is the Jews. From the Inquisition to the Holocaust, large batches (in the millions) of Jews have been killed in the gas chambers, torture chambers, etc. Hmmm… so whose had it worse, blacks who were enslaved for just 200 years or Jews who faced discrimination dating all the way back to Rome, and still face it today. Instead of whining like blacks, Jews reacted to the evolutionary pressures, and those people are nothing but scientists, bankers, and media moguls. It seems supporting poor blacks is just making the race weaker.

</p>

<p>Anti-semitism is much worse in Europe than it is here. Jews are actually over-represented at some top colleges.</p>

<p>Anyway, colleges just want to look diverse. No matter how many times I tell you that, you respond with some wacky conspiracy about how colleges love black people and hate whites and Jews. Get over it.</p>

[happycowlover]

<p>But racism and discrimination is still alive in 2009. Not the only reason, but a valid reason. And you can’t say 99.9% that happens to a URM is from personal failures. That makes you sound uninformed and ignorant.</p>

[StitchInTime]

<p>It’s healthy to see the issue of meritocracy and ‘race’ being discussed and debated in the High School Life forum. In just a few short years, many of the posters in this forum will be full-fledged members of society; with all the benefits and responsibilities that it engenders. </p>

<p>One of these responsibilities is to embrace the full spirit of post-high school education: developing the critical thinking skills that allow you to pursue truth. Some colleges even incorporate the Latin form of truth, [Veritas[/url</a>], into their motto. Questioning assumptions is one of those skills. In our country, the concept of ‘race’ is assumed and past on from generation to generation. However, a [url=<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1063082590-post679.html]quick”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1063082590-post679.html]quick</a> study of history](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veritas]Veritas[/url”>Veritas - Wikipedia) shows that we, as humans, have a psychology that makes assumptions that are sometimes revealed to be otherwise.</p>

<p>The concept of ‘race’ [is</a> being revealed to be a social concept](<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1063086531-post683.html]is”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1063086531-post683.html). In light of that, the future stewards of our society have an opportunity to influence it. As [noted</a> in a discussion on Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates’ arrest](<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1062976402-post851.html]noted”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1062976402-post851.html), society is literally made up of individual decisions (for math geeks, think of the analogy: S = ∑(ID); where S=Society, ID=Individual Decisions). </p>

<p>A very influential biologist, [Darcy</a> Thompson](<a href=“Center for the Study of Complex Systems | U-M LSA”>Center for the Study of Complex Systems | U-M LSA), is credited with observing that “everything is the way it is because it got that way”. With that in mind, consider the thoughts shared in the Parent Cafe thread entitled [Real</a> Diversity](<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1062132705-post35.html][i]Real”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1062132705-post35.html): </p>

<p>

Individuals adopting a philosophy of ‘Diversity’ should ask themselves if the philosophy extends to the decisions they make in formulating the next generation. Spouse selection is the #1 determiner of the next generation’s ‘Diversity’. After that, passing on a ‘color-blind’ spouse selection philosophy will lead to ‘Real Diversity’.

</p>

<p>The procreative decisions we as individuals make today will impact future generations. If those decisions are influenced by a [social</a> concept of ‘race’](<a href=“http://www.aaanet.org/stmts/racepp.htm]social”>http://www.aaanet.org/stmts/racepp.htm), then it is inevitable that ‘race’ and all it ills will be propagated.</p>

[natim1]

<p>In Outliers, it talks about the University of Michigan’s AA policy and that they do lower standards. And that the URMs in college continue to do not as well as the whites BUT when it comes time to get a job and stuff, the URM do just as well as the whites even though their test scores were consistently lower. Test scores aren’t everything. I don’t really know how I feel about AA. I mean, I think it’s a bit offensive to say that all Blacks and Hispanics are born at a disadvantage. And how does AA work for an adopted black or hispanic? Hmm. interesting</p>

[jamesford]

<p>

since AA is stated to be about correcting for current situations, not apologizing for the past.

</p>

<p>The current situations are a consequence of what happened in the past.</p>

<p>And yes, I find it very odd that Jews, despite having suffered centuries of persecution, were the reason for quotas in the Ivy League in the early 20th century. Playing the “who suffered more” game, however, is asinine.</p>

[birthofthecool]

<p>

Anti-semitism is much worse in Europe than it is here. Jews are actually over-represented at some top colleges.</p>

<p>Anyway, colleges just want to look diverse. No matter how many times I tell you that, you respond with some wacky conspiracy about how colleges love black people and hate whites and Jews. Get over it.

</p>

<p>I meant to type a much longer post, but I accidentally deleted it before sending it in…anyhow… Honestly I don’t think AA affects Whites so much (it mainly affects Asians), so that’s why there are so many Jews at the top universities…the vast majority of the Whites in the Ivy League schools aren’t WASPs, but Jews. Still, AA is wrong. It removes the incentives for hard work which Western civilization is based on. I also agree that trying figure out which group had it the hardest is asinine…so why not remove AA? It’s stupid, asinine, and we will never fully understand why some groups clearly had a hard time and improved themselves, and others can’t.</p>

[theReach]

<p>

@StitchInTime

That was pretty quick: Godwin’s Law

</p>

<p>Page 2, I already called this idiot out plenty of times, look at his replies.</p>

<p>

@LogicWarrior

You know who else liked social darwinism?
That’s right, Hitler. Social darwinism takes a theory that was written about species and applies it to races. How anyone could claim social darwinism is not racist is shocking.

</p>

<p>

@theReach

It’s not exactly a card. It’s more like a desperate attempt to make a comeback when he knows that he had no intelligent response to my statement, aka logical fallacy aka Reductio ad Hitlerum. Just because Hitler supported social darwinism, its suddenly bad? Many Americans supported social darwinism, from the beginning of the nation to its peak, during the Gilded Age. Why didn’t you mention that? And it doesn’t work; Godwin’s Law - “if you mention Hitler or Nazis in a post, you’ve automatically ended whatever discussion you were taking part in”. Sucks for your forum name, because you can’t change it and you’ve been making logical fallacies all throughout this thread.

</p>

<p>

@LogicWarrior

pretty much, yeah, he used it as an excuse to kill millions of people soooo…

</p>

<p>

@theReach

You did not read my post at all. Read it. Read it. Read it. Reductio ad Hitlerum. Reductio ad Hitlerum. Reductio ad Hitlerum. You have the logic (and attention span) of a 5th grader attempting to justify stealing a candy bar.

</p>

<p>

@LogicWarrior

lol, you think you can just make up phrases and you’re all good?

</p>

<p>

@theReach

you think you can get through life ignoring things you don’t know? It’s not a made up phrase. It’s a very real logical fallacy. Look it up before you open your mouth/type. Here, again: Reductio ad Hitlerum. Look it up, be enlighted, and learn that arguing with me, especially with your capabilities and intelligence, puts you at a significant disadvantage, more so than many other people I’ve gotten to argue against.

</p>

<p>The guy fails to acknowledge his failure, and continues to post in this thread, breaking Godwin’s Law into pieces, a very rare occurrence that only happens when the lawbreaker is so ignorant that he doesn’t realize mentioning Hitler or Nazis makes your words laughed upon after that.</p>

[LogicWarrior]

<p>

so why not remove AA? It’s stupid, asinine, and we will never fully understand why some groups clearly had a hard time and improved themselves, and others can’t.

</p>

<p>You don’t get it, it’s not about which groups had the hardest time, it’s about which groups are underrepresented.</p>

<p>

The guy fails to acknowledge his failure, and continues to post in this thread, breaking Godwin’s Law into pieces, a very rare occurrence that only happens when the lawbreaker is so ignorant that he doesn’t realize mentioning Hitler or Nazis makes your words laughed upon after that.

</p>

<p>Do I really have to explain that since the theory you like was an excuse to kill millions of people it might be a bad thing?</p>

<p>Godwin’s Law might actually apply here, hmmm…</p>

[birthofthecool]

<p>

You don’t get it, it’s not about which groups had the hardest time, it’s about which groups are underrepresented.

</p>

<p>Why the frick is that important? Why can’t we just be individuals and not members of a race? Why are we rewarding people just cuz there’s not enough other people that look like them? The difference in representation amongst the races isn’t necesarrily due to racism, past injustices, blah blah blah. You still haven’t proved it yet.</p>

[theReach]

<p>Hey, LogicWarrior, some little tips for people like you who argue on the internet by reading the summary paragraph on Wikipedia.</p>

<ol>
<li>Look something up before you call it made-up.</li>
</ol>

<p>

@theReach

Just because Hitler supported social darwinism, its suddenly bad?

@LogicWarrior

pretty much, yeah, he used it as an excuse to kill millions of people soooo…

@theReach

Reductio ad Hitlerum

@LogicWarrior

lol, you think you can just make up phrases and you’re all good?

</p>

<ol>
<li>Don’t try to use something, in this case Godwin’s Law in your argument, especially after it was used against you multiple times successfully.</li>
</ol>

<p>At this point, I really can’t tell if you are ignorant beyond belief or just ■■■■■■■■ me. I’m leaning towards the latter, because I’ve embarrassed you so much yet you keep chugging along, and I’ve never seen that much doggedness even in the most ignorant people. I cannot wait to see your response, and how you manage to circumvent this pimp smack to your face again.</p>

[LogicWarrior]

<p>Colleges.</p>

<p>Want.</p>

<p>To.</p>

<p>Look.</p>

<p>Diverse.</p>

<p>HBCUs have a hard time attracting white applicants (even with reverse AA, yes it does exist), and the UCs are often derided as being too full of Asians. </p>

<p>Colleges don’t just exist as academic institutions, they try to be diverse centers of people from all walks of life learning and living. Even without AA, the most qualified applicants would still risk being rejected in favor of someone with a unique background. A URM appears unique on the surface and so AA is a shortcut to getting people with unique backgrounds.</p>

<p>theReach, I think you need a break from the internet, you take it way too seriously. Also, I’ve never met a person who’s fun to be around and believes in social darwinism, so I’m going to assume you’re an overly competitive pretentious prick.</p>

[noreally]

<p>This has gone way off topic…</p>

[theReach]

<p>

theReach, I think you need a break from the internet, you take it way too seriously. Also, I’ve never met a person who’s fun to be around and believes in social darwinism, so I’m going to assume you’re an overly competitive pretentious prick.

</p>

<p>says the guy arguing the same thing with me? Lol. Can you answer a direct question? Why did you say I made up a phrase when its clearly a real logical fallacy? If you admit your mistake, I’ll stop harassing you and making you look stupid.</p>