"Yield Rates" at eating clubs

Colleges and Universities A-Z Princeton University
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<p>JHS, it seems that my original three sentence and well-justified criticism of your misguided and age-inappropriate remarks at the beginning of this thread have unleashed a torrent of self-justification. I’m not convinced.</p>

<p>I’ve never been convinced by those who begin with a gratuitous insult and follow it with “but I’m not biased because some of my best friends are [blank].”</p>

<p>Please consider this. If, as you say, you have so many friends who are Princeton alumni, would you feel comfortable sharing your online statements with them? Are they statements that you believe reflect well on you as a man in his 50s and as a Yale alumnus posting on a college website designed primarily for the benefit of high school students applying to college? Are you compelled to make these comments? If so, by what feelings or motives?</p>

<p>Stereotypes have a life of their own and while I accept that you sincerely believe that your judgment is sound and impartial, I submit that it is anything but. While your connections with others who seem to have had a close association with Princeton might appear to give you a basis for your opinions, there is no substitute for actually experiencing an institution yourself as a student and the following, believe me, does not qualify.</p>

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<p>It would be best if you allowed those of us who actually attended Princeton to provide the students using this site with more accurate characterizations. It’s not as though, as a group, we’re entirely lacking in self-criticism (see the previous two posts) and if you feel the need to point out reasons why students should not apply or attend then you should at least rely on verifiable facts and statistics rather than your personal opinion. Much of what you have described as factual is simply not.</p>

<p>You write that you have “tons of respect for Princeton, and express it frequently.” The passages of yours that I quoted above are all from the last few months. I would encourage you to guide us to some of your significant and recent statements of admiration for Princeton as an institution that don’t involve a shallow compliment about the appearance of the campus (something, by the way, which you seem to sneer at in your recent remark about paths for golf carts and excessive landscaping) or comparisons to institutions that you clearly view as being, in your words, “at a lower level.”</p>

<p>There is a word for the attitude you exhibit but I think it’s a little too harsh in your case. As I said before, in the past, your remarks had seemed to me to be moderate. It’s only been more recently that you’ve veered toward the unseemly. I now see in your remarks a bit of what one of your fellow alums has posted in his or her online comment #3 in this Yale Daily News article about the drop in Yale’s applications this year. Don’t skip the second paragraph.</p>

<p>[Yale</a> Daily News - Fall in applications defies trend - Comments](<a href=“http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/university-news/2010/01/22/fall-applications-defies-trend/comments/]Yale”>http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/university-news/2010/01/22/fall-applications-defies-trend/comments/)</p>

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<p>OP here. Didn’t intend for this thread to careen off as it has.</p>

<p>PtonGrad2000 - As you stressed, this forum is supposed to serve as a place where current college applicants can get a better feel for a school from reasonably informed people. I think we can all agree that students looking seriously at Princeton are also likely to be looking seriously at other of the nation’s premier colleges and universities, and agree as well that one of the key distinguishing features of Princeton is the system of how people eat meals and socialize, namely the semi-private eating club system. You will not find a similar system at Harvard, Yale, or Stanford, which I assume are Princeton’s principal competitors in the admissions arena. This is something kids looking at these schools should consider, and that’s why I provided a link written by Princeton students and published on the front page of that school’s daily paper on this topic.</p>

<p>The article, which I first became aware of on ivygateblog, a gossipy, humor oriented blog, affected me as it did the editors of that blog – as a mind-numbing reminder of a system that seems superannuated, and redolent of a persistent competitive elitism despite its having been tempered down significantly in recent decades. I literally cracked up reading all the statistics on bickerers and bickerees and waiting lists and yield rates as I think most outsiders would from peer schools. It was, like, you’re making this up, right?</p>

<p>I myself looked at Princeton as a senior and was captivated by the beauty of the campus but totally turned off by eating club row. The thought that I couldn’t just go in and eat at one of the clubs without getting sponsored by a friend in that club would never sit right with me. One of the great things about Harvard is being able to eat any of the multitude of houses as well as countless grad/prof halls whenever you wish. It’s one of the ways I make new friends.</p>

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<p>This is one of the problems that occurs when people who have not attended an institution pretend to know something about it. In fact, the very same situation exists at Princeton. Any student with a university meal contract can eat in any of the undergraduate college dining halls whenever he or she wishes. There are many other options as well including eating at the cafeteria for faculty members. There are no professional schools at Princeton and therefore no law school, med school or business school dining facilities as there are at Harvard. I will tell you, however, that when I was a law student at Harvard I don’t think I ever remember seeing someone who could easily be identified as an undergraduate eating there. The option may exist but it isn’t used.</p>

<p>I have no objection whatsoever to your posting the article. It’s the condescending and uninformed color commentary that you and others add that I find inappropriate and I think you’re fooling yourself if you believe you posted for the reasons you state. Your own history would suggest otherwise.</p>

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<p>@JHS: “Where else in the English language would you have someone who “bickers” called a “bickeree” (as opposed to a “bickerer” or a “bicker”, or just a “pledge”)?”</p>

<p>—Members are bickerers, sophomores are bickerees.</p>

<p>“Are women allowed to be presidents of eating clubs? … (Of course women can be presidents of eating clubs! I just noticed that none were.)”</p>

<p>—At least one club president this year will be a girl. There was nothing in your original statement that indicated that you knew “of course” women can be club presidents.</p>

<p>“What happened to Ivy and Tiger Inn?”</p>

<p>—What do you mean, “what happened”? Just because not a lot of people bicker doesn’t mean they’re not influential. Not a lot of people bicker because they’re very self-selecting, as they care a lot about your affiliation.</p>

<p>@soomoo: “When I was a student at Princeton, many moons ago, I was shocked that so many intelligent people would put themselves through the bicker process.”</p>

<p>—Bicker itself isn’t all that bad, it’s the potential of being hosed. Most bickerees have a lot of fun.</p>

<p>“Let’s do away with bicker and have only sign-ins.”</p>

<p>—Sign-in clubs can be much cliquey-er than bicker clubs. You sign in with your circle of friends, and that’s it. There isn’t anything really tying you to the rest of your sign-in class, except for the fact that you all chose your sign-in. The older members don’t know anything about you, and have no incentive to meet you. With bicker clubs, the club chose you and all of your peers, and older members have heard a lot of stuff about what a great person you are, and would like to ensure that the membership of the club continues to be strong in the future.</p>

<p>“The president of Princeton has claimed more than once that the biggest reason that accepted students turn down the school is due to the existence of the eating clubs.”</p>

<p>—She says that because she hates bicker clubs, and would rather scapegoat them than admit that our lack of professional schools results in a level of prestige that is subordinate to Harvard and Yale. Even if it’s true, by graduation, the eating clubs are many students’ absolute favorite feature of Princeton.</p>

<p>@younghickory: “Tower has the highest numbers probably because its bicker process is attractive to people who are worried about getting hosed. (positive only bicker)”</p>

<p>—Tower has the highest numbers because it seems accessible to people who aren’t strongly affiliated or who don’t party very hard or who are averse to getting hazed (both physically and psychologically). If you want to get to know Tower better, you can sign up for the bicker mailing list on their website and they’ll send you information about bicker parties and sophomore dinners - none of the other bicker clubs do this, as they seem to be uninterested in attracting more bickerees. I’m not sure if positive-only bicker is attractive to people who are worried about getting hosed. (For those reading, positive-only bicker refers to the fact that Tower members are not allowed to say negative things about bickerees during discussions) It really shouldn’t be, as I’d much rather force members to justify why they don’t like a bickeree instead of just checking off “no support,” because for all I know, the reason could be incredibly petty. Also, discussions are private, so it’s not like I’m hearing the bad things that are being said about me.</p>

<p>@natsherman: “The article, which I first became aware of on ivygateblog, a gossipy, humor oriented blog, affected me as it did the editors of that blog – as a mind-numbing reminder of a system that seems superannuated, and redolent of a persistent competitive elitism”</p>

<p>—So what do you think of the way kids are selected for Greek organizations at hundreds of schools across the country? Is that any better? How are we more elitist? People just give us **** because Princeton is a conspicuous target for accusations of exclusivity.</p>

<p>“The thought that I couldn’t just go in and eat at one of the clubs without getting sponsored by a friend in that club would never sit right with me.”</p>

<p>—Once again, how is that different from a frat/sorority house? I can’t just saunter into the Pike house at Tulsa and eat a meal.</p>

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<p>^ Great responses, and really helpful - thank you!</p>

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<p>^^ and you definitely can’t just saunter into a finals club</p>

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<p>Harvard has its blocking groups angst at the end of freshman year, Princeton has bicker end of sophomore year.</p>

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<p>Harvard also has its sophomore final club punch angst. With far fewer slots in the small final clubs, and only two for women, there is plenty of disappointment. There are three Harvard sororities (without buildings) for freshmen women to rush as well.</p>

<p>The Princeton system of bicker and sign-in eating clubs offers many more chances for inclusion than Harvard. And, as mentioned above, Harvard’s house system does not offer strong social ties as it is randomly assigned.( The blocking system of 8 friends from freshman year does not always have a significant social impact.)</p>

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<p>My d is a junior ,not in eating clubs who lives in upperclass housing as a single in the New Butler. She has a meal plan and goes to eating clubs when she feels like it.She has some friends who put themselves through bicker twice at Tower and weren’t accepted. She called me and commented how she felt bad that it really hurt their feelings. To alot of students getting in seems to offer them an identity of sorts because it is a large part of social life at Princeton. For my d it hasn’t been a big deal because she is very engaged in a particular activity that coupled with a job and studying takes up most of her time(when you factor in exercise, eating and sleep).</p>

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<p>Why on earth is there so much focus on Princeton’s bicker process. </p>

<p>Its not as though Harvard and Yale don’t have equivalent institutions (finals clubs/secret societies) with equally “elitist” selection criteria. And before anyone talks about how those institutions don’t dominate the undergraduate social scene, you’re missing the point. At Harvard and Yale, those groups cater to a small but significant portion of the student body while, for the most part, shutting everyone else out. Meanwhile, at Princeton, it was never a problem getting into pretty much any club on any given night. If you want to make the eating clubs a big part of your life, bicker is not going to be an obstacle to that.</p>

<p>Finally, bicker is in most respects a much better process than rush. You can have your qualms about bicker but I don’t see anything to be gained by framing it as a Princeton-specific problem.</p>