"Yield Rates" at eating clubs

Colleges and Universities A-Z Princeton University
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<p>Ivygateblog justed flagged this recent article from the DailyPrincetonian. It really is astonishing to an outsider to read about and acceptance and yield rates at the various clubs and how they are tracked -- isn't just getting accepted into Princeton competitive enough without going through all this "agita' " too? Princeton seems a little whackadoodle compared to its major peers. At least I learned a new word today -- "bickeree."</p>

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<p>Daily Princetonian, Monday, Feb 8, 2010</p>

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TOWER HAS RECORD 219 BICKEREES</p>

<p>With 219 bickering, Tower Club set a new record for the largest bicker class in the University’s history. The previous record of 217 was set by Tower in spring 2008. Of those who bickered, 99 were accepted, outgoing president Steve Marcus ’10 said in an e-mail, though he declined to provide further comment.</p>

<p>Tower’s acceptance rate of 45 percent marks a sharp decrease from last year, when the club took 99 of 159 bickerees, yielding an acceptance rate of 62 percent...

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<ol>
<li><p>Princeton obviously has unique morphology. Where else in the English language would you have someone who “bickers” called a “bickeree” (as opposed to a “bickerer” or a “bicker”, or just a “pledge”)? Is this indicative of a quality that outsiders have long purported to notice at Princeton, a certain carelessness about who is doing what to whom at any particular time?</p></li>
<li><p>Are women allowed to be presidents of eating clubs? Nine of them are quoted, and none of them even has a name that’s ambiguous as to gender. (Well, maybe “Barrett” is an ambiguous name. Summer Glau was “Bennett” on Dollhouse. But I’ve never seen a female Barrett. Not to mention Steve, Eric, Douglas, etc.)</p></li>
<li><p>What happened to Ivy and Tiger Inn? I’m pretty sure that they were the ne plus ultra in my generation. I used to run into really impressive Ivy Club guys all the time (and they WERE all guys back then, or at least had been in college).</p></li>
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<p>When I was a student at Princeton, many moons ago, I was shocked that so many intelligent people would put themselves through the bicker process. I always felt that the whole process was a microcosm of what was wrong with society in general. It seems as though not much has changed. In fact, I think its gotten a bit worse with the fraternities and sororities becoming feeders to certain clubs.</p>

<p>Even though I was always an independent (couldn’t afford the fees for the clubs), I never had a problem with the non bicker clubs. You gotta eat somewhere and the food’s usually pretty good.</p>

<p>The president of Princeton has claimed more than once that the biggest reason that accepted students turn down the school is due to the existence of the eating clubs. I believe it is probably true.</p>

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<p>For their Senior Paper, I think some enterprising student should conduct a “Revealed Preference” study on the eating clubs and construct a “Preference Matrix”. For instance, of the 48% of Tower “Accepts” who turn the offer down, how many end up where? Considering all the econ and math types at Princeton, this has probably already been done.</p>

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<p>@natsherman</p>

<p>If my memory serves me correctly…you don’t turn the club down once you’ve been accepted (financial reasons may be the exception). I believe you only bicker at one club so if they want you…you go. Not like college applications where you can spread your risk around a bit.</p>

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<p>In the words of one famous former poster (and Harvard alum). . . <em>sigh</em>.</p>

<p>It always puzzles me that seemingly mature Harvard students (natsherman) and Yale alumni (JHS) should be so interested in posting what they think will be negative information on the Princeton board. Their comments are too often based on bad information, unexamined and outdated stereotypes, condescension or all three. (JHS, still a little annoyed at having been wrong in your self-confident assertion in this thread? <a href=“Application number out yet? - Yale University - College Confidential Forums”>Application number out yet? - Yale University - College Confidential Forums) One rarely if ever sees such posts started by Princeton alumni on the other two boards and it seems rather childish to me. </p>

<p>I think what the numbers in this article actually suggest is that on average a full 50% of those who want to go through the bicker process do get accepted at their first choice club. Individual clubs vary in popularity from year to year. Each club has limited space available for new members and its acceptance rate will be almost entirely a function of the number of people who want to belong to it that year. While Tower was able to accept just 45% of those applying this year, it might accept 75% next year if it’s a less popular choice at that time. Readers will also note in the second section of the article that even those who were not accepted during bicker, or who chose not to bicker, still had the option of signing into the 50% of the clubs that are open and don’t use the bicker process. In the end, no one who wants to be in a club is excluded. Each applicant may not get into the club of his or her choice, but membership in some club is always possible.</p>

<p>There must be dozens of threads that already exist regarding eating clubs at Princeton. These institutions certainly have their detractors but a) the overwhelming majority of students at Princeton enjoy them even if they don’t belong to one (the parties are generally open to all who are not underage) and b) anyone can be a member of one of the sign-in clubs which don’t use the bicker process. This openness is actually very unlike the much more closed nature of parties at the Harvard Final Clubs and at the Yale Secret Societies. Underclassmen quickly find at the latter two that getting invited to parties is relatively easy if you are female and virtually impossible if you’re male.</p>

<p>I personally believe that the best and most balanced review of these institutions was done by the staff of the Yale Daily News four years ago. Those articles can be found here:</p>

<p>[Yale</a> Daily News - Taking it to ‘The Street’](<a href=“http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/17212]Yale”>http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/17212) = on Princeton’s Eating Clubs
[Yale</a> Daily News - Final clubs provide controversial social outlet](<a href=“http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/17230]Yale”>http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/17230) = on Harvard’s Final Clubs
[Yale</a> Daily News - Societies find their secret niche](<a href=“http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/17253]Yale”>http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/17253) = on Yale’s Secret Societies</p>

<p>I’d like to note that much has changed even since the above articles were written. Today, Princeton undergraduates choose from a wide variety of dining options, including remaining in their four year undergraduate colleges and taking their meals there or having a joint plan that allows them both to belong to a club and simultaneously remain a member of their college. The financial aid packages offered to students now include an additional sum that can be used to cover the slightly higher costs of food contracts at the clubs so that all students can afford to take their meals at the clubs if they so wish regardless of their financial circumstances.</p>

<p>As I’ve said before, I chose not to belong to a club but I’ve enjoyed parties up and down the Street and my experience is probably even more common today with so many students choosing to remain a part of their undergraduate colleges for all four years.</p>

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<p>^Everything you say is correct. But lets face it, the bicker clubs are very cliquey. To say that Harvard and Yale are no better is a cop-out. Princeton can do better! </p>

<p>Let’s do away with bicker and have only sign-ins. That’s not going to happen though. The all male clubs had to be sued to allow women in.</p>

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<p>To be pragmatic, eating club, specifically bicker club alumni are among the wealthiest and donate the most to the university, so they will quickly oppose any university-led change to the system.
Second, most students I know at the university don’t really mind the bicker system. You might look at CC and see nervous students but to be completely frank, they are among the least social because they spend such a large amount of time here.
People are selected because the older club members want to spend lunch, dinner and most of their social time with a bickeree. You are even more discriminatory with your friendships, I know that.</p>

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<p>I am a princeton alum who was a proud member of a sign in club. I bickered and got hosed sophomore year, and while it sucked, I ended up with a really great group of friends.</p>

<p>Contrary to popular opinion, the club system is not exclusive. My senior year I was a member of an eating club, and lived in a four year college with 3 other students-- 1 was a member of a selective eating club, one was a member of a (different) non-selective eating club, and 1 was independent. I had very good friends in 4 or 5 of the eating clubs, and a good percentage of my friends were independent. It is relatively easy to exchange meals with friends so that you can eat together even if you are in different clubs. </p>

<p>Females can definitely be president of an eating club, my year there was at least one female president. Most people don’t really tend to want that much responsibility. The president is usually the one who gets sued if there is some alcohol related infraction. Multiple clubs have vice presidents who are women.</p>

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<p>^ You guys call your pledge process ‘hosing’? Or is hosed a funny way of saying hazed? Either way… hilarious.</p>

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<p>PtonGrad: Apart from a little teasing, I don’t have any interest in posting negative information about Princeton, and I don’t think I did on this thread. Frankly, I look at the Princeton board maybe three times a year. The article in this thread caught my eye because of the “bickeree” thing, and because (as I indicated) which club was “in” seems to have changed. I looked again today to see if anyone had answered my question. I have nothing against eating clubs, and it so happened that for several years after college I worked a lot with some great Princeton grads, all of whom – bickerees (mostly from Ivy) and independents – had loved it.</p>

<p>I’m sorry if you feel so defensive that a little good-natured teasing about word formation, Princeton-style basketball, and noticing the fact that every single club elected a male president qualify as “negative information”. (Of course women can be presidents of eating clubs! I just noticed that none were.) I’m not “annoyed” at all about the application number thread – I was right about the past, and it’s interesting that the present is different. As I said there, none of the reasons why Princeton might lag Harvard and Yale in applications has any current substance, so it’s great if the world of high school fashion has somehow caught on to that.</p>

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<p>hosing is if you don’t get in. I bickered a selective eating club, didn’t get in, and joined an unselective eating club. You can bicker again in the fall and in the spring of every year after sophomore year, but I had found a really great group of friends/ awesome club and so I decided not to.</p>

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<p>JHS, I hadn’t planned on doing anything more than simply chiding an enthusiastic Yale alumnus for his immoderate remarks, but since you’ve responded, I will add a few more thoughts. </p>

<p>Most of your comments on these boards have been moderate but I think you should do a little soul-searching and consider whether your recent references to Princeton are actually useful to high school students and are based on current and accurate information or are simply reflections of a certain bias on your part. Many of your comments seem to me to be designed simply to reinforce negative (and baseless) stereotypes about today’s Princeton which you routinely characterize (at least in comparison to Yale, your alma mater) as being less intellectual, WASPier, wealthier and more privileged. Of course, none of this is true and we can certainly argue based on facts and statistics if you wish. I’d prefer, however, that you simply be a little more self-aware and self-critical. If you have children of the age you claim to have, you should expect nothing less from yourself.</p>

<p>Here are just a few of your recent CC musings regarding Princeton. I think the not so subtle put-downs are reasonably clear and their frequency and context place most of them outside the realm of “good-natured teasing” even if you qualify them somewhat after having delivered the insult.</p>

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<p><a href=“One%20of%20my%20favorite%20Yale%20teachers%20moved%20to%20Princeton,%20but%20he%20was%20an%20ultra-conservative%20throwback,%20not%20hip%20at%20all.”>quote=JHS</a>

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<p>Finally, you’ve misinterpreted my previous remarks if you think that responding to erudite put-downs over the use of the English language or suggestions of rampant sexism was a sign of defensiveness. It was nothing of the sort. Please understand that it was a forthright request for an apology on your part.</p>

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<p>Originally Posted by MSteve:
You might look at CC and see nervous students but to be completely frank, they are among the least social because they spend such a large amount of time here. </p>

<p>–</p>

<p>Ouch. Harsh. False.</p>

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<p>PtonGrad, with the exception of a few obvious shots, if you consider those posts over-negative, you are living in cloud-cuckoo-land.</p>

<p>I will stand by the following statements as 100% factual:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Princeton NJ is a very wealthy place, and registers that way to everybody. Palo Alto, too.</p></li>
<li><p>People on and around the Princeton campus are dressed (a) more attractively, (b) more expensively, and (c) more preppily than at Chicago and Yale. (I was probably contrasting Chicago or Yale with Princeton and Penn.) I am not certain that it’s always the students who are dressed that way, but some clearly are.</p></li>
<li><p>Princeton freshman rooms absolutely sucked in my day. I saw them, they were horrid. Yale is still using basically the same freshman rooms I had, and they were nice.</p></li>
<li><p>Lots of people, including me, don’t like the idea of the eating clubs. But Princeton students and alumni have attitudes that range from loving them to not minding them at all. So – as I said in the part of my post you excised – no one should reject Princeton because they don’t like the idea of the eating clubs.</p></li>
<li><p>In my community, few non-rich kids apply to Princeton. They believe Princeton doesn’t like them, they don’t know anyone who got in. My kids’ public high school sends 20-30 kids to Penn each year, and usually one or two to Harvard, Yale, Brown, Cornell. In the past seven years, one kid has gone to Princeton. As far as I know, only one person in my son’s class applied to Princeton, and she was privileged. None of the non-privileged kids with Princeton-eligible records applied there. In my daughter’s class, two such kids DID apply there, and were rejected, the only college that rejected either of them.</p></li>
<li><p>As a literary scholar, Victor Brombert was very conservative, and not hip, but a wonderful teacher. Princeton has not had a hip department in any major literature during my lifetime, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t have great teachers. </p></li>
<li><p>Princeton historically had a very preppy image, and still does to some extent. Sorry.</p></li>
<li><p>Princeton and Stanford feel more laid-back than Harvard or Yale when you walk around them. Many people don’t think that’s a bad thing.</p></li>
<li><p>Princeton and Dartmouth are much smaller universities than Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Chicago, Penn, Columbia, Cornell, etc.</p></li>
<li><p>The revealed preference study had Princeton and Stanford “winning” less than 1/3 of their head-to-head contests with Harvard or Yale. That was about 10 years ago, now. I understand that the methodology of that study may be suspect, better than I did when I made that post. However, back when I paid some attention to how many people Princeton accepted, it was essentially accepting for a 50% yield in its RD pool, which was meaningfully lower than Harvard and Yale were getting, so it certainly looked like Princeton was not winning an equal number of head-to-head contests with those schools.</p></li>
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<p>On the other hand, Princeton does not have more sexual ambiguity than any comparable school, and I don’t know anyone who went there named Buffy or Trey, and only one Trip. Those were shots, and pretty recognizable as such. Boo-hoo-hoo.</p>

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<p>You bicker an eating club but you are also bickered by the members, that’s the word they use for it. So the people that choose to bicker an eating club are known as bickerees. </p>

<p>Also, Ivy and T.I. are still really popular. Tower has the highest numbers probably because its bicker process is attractive to people who are worried about getting hosed. (positive only bicker)</p>

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<p>I think it’s this tone that is the problem, especially coming from an adult and a parent.</p>

<p>I also think, JHS, that your world experiences must be a little limited and it’s certainly clear that your view of Princeton was formed a very long time ago and probably in an atmosphere at Yale that was decidedly prone to stereotyping other peer institutions. It would be wise to admit and acknowledge that. Your remarks about differences in intensity, the type of students who attend and the nature of the education are way off the mark and cannot stand up to facts. </p>

<p>I stand by my assessment of the tone of your remarks and I suspect most readers of this thread will agree with me. It appears that you stand firmly behind your remarks as well. So be it. I’ll accept the fact that no apology will be forthcoming.</p>

<p>We know what you think of Princeton. You won’t find me (or most other Princeton alumni) taking similar cheap shots at Yale.</p>

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<p>It’s true that my attitude towards Princeton was formed years ago, when I abandoned my application there. But it has evolved over the years. Stereotyping had little or nothing to do with it, since when I was in college and afterwards I had extensive contact with Princeton students and alums. My college roommate’s girlfriend and brother were students there. I had a high school classmate who was a student there. My favorite older cousin, on whom I modeled myself up to a point, got his PhD there and then taught there for six years (and was not, in the end, treated well, but he always liked the institution and his students). I visited him regularly there. I had Princeton housemates in law school, Princeton co-clerks after law school, work every day with a Princeton alum, and had another Princeton alum couple over for dinner tonight. A close family friend was a Trustee of Princeton for many years and is fiercely devoted to it. I live about 40 miles away, and am on the campus or in the town periodically. I spent the better part of a day there a few years ago. My wife co-taught several sessions of a class there in her area of expertise six years ago.</p>

<p>So, yes, I clearly never liked Princeton as much as you did, since I decided not to apply to it, and never wished I had. But my attitude towards Princeton is the product of 30+ years of repeated contact with the institution and its students and alumni, not stereotypes. I have tons of respect for Princeton, and express it frequently. (You didn’t bother to cull any of my posts where I say I think it is the single most beautiful campus in this country, or talk about its similarity to Stanford, something most people see as positive.)</p>

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<p>I posted something similar on another thread, but here it goes.
Why does Princeton have a 60% alumni giving rate and Harvard and Yale 40%? The usual explanation is that Harvard and Yale aren’t undergraduate oriented, and Princeton is. True enough. But I suspect that the interpersonal experience is even more important.
The most important social arrangements at Princeton (and Dartmouth) are controlled by the students. Harvard and Yale sought to mimic Oxford, but at Oxford most students apply to a college and are accepted or rejected. At Harvard and Yale, these choices are completely at the whim of the administration. Freedom of association and respect for student choices (remember that these students were admitted to Harvard and Yale) are not a factor.
Princeton IMO is trying to entice students to the residential college model, but in my daughter’s experience, and in mine, the college identification is very weak in comparison to associations mutually chosen. The bottom line is that the experiences of a Cottage member or a Dartmouth coed society member become conflated with their identification with the academic institution. And the positive identification with their college years is very, very strong.
I really don’t understand why Harvard and Yale don’t respect their students more. But they pay the price on the alumni end.
For background, my daughter is a Princeton student now studying at Oxford.
To balance this view, watching some of the smartest students in the nation obsess about social status is upsetting. My daughter was admitted to Ivy and her hosed roommate left in tears to drive back in the middle of the night to Cleveland. The destruction can be palpable. My daughter was not surprised to be admitted to Princeton. She was shocked that she got into Ivy. It has been said that Princeton is more competitive socially than it is academically, and in my experience that is certainly the case.
On the other hand, I have a long association with the University of Chicago, where there are no such social distinctions. I get tired of saying hello to students who pretend that they don’t see or hear me. I get introverted, but many students are socially disabled. Two graduates I work with who did not get into medical school said they were told “we don’t interview well”.
So pick your poison. It should be a surprise to no one that there is no ideal institution.</p>

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<p>No one seems to have anything good to say about the process of bicker. </p>

<p>Two out of my three roommates at Princeton bickered and were accepted. Neither of them felt very good about the process, not only when they were bickering themselves, but later when they had to go and pass judgment on “bickerees”. I think they felt dirtied by the whole thing. I think in her senior year, one of my roommates feigned sickness to get out of having to go through this.</p>

<p>I realize my perspective is limited, so I would love to hear a different view.</p>