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<p>_> I mean, ewwww. Just looking at how worried you guys are about getting into an ivy league school/well known school is kinda sad.</p>
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<p>It gets annoying when someone can have good grades, ecs, etc, yet someone will still find a flaw in their app.</p>
<p>Who cares. I mean really, everyone who goes here will go to college.</p>
<p>Yes, but sadly Penguin, many here aren't quite mature enough to realize that they can do well at any good school. Top schools really get all the hype and so people feel like it's over if they don't get in.</p>
<p>I always think it's crazy when I see something like the fact that the Pres of MIT (recent, maybe current still?) Susan Hockfield went to the University of Rochester. Not a bad school at all, but certainly not HYP that people are dying to get into, and she turned out fine. There are many, many people like that.</p>
<p>It's not a matter of maturity. Sure, we see people such as the President of MIT who attended a second-tier university, but they are minorities. I agree that some people can perform well at any school, but it's not just about performance. Many people want to get a job after college, or go on to a professional school, or get into grad school. There are undeniable advantages to attending some top schools such as HYP as opposed to a second-tier school. I'll give you one very simple example: pre-meds. It's one of the most populous "majors" on most college campuses. Competition to get into medical school is tougher than ever. About 50% of the applicants nationally are rejected from every single medical school they apply to, and that's just the people who apply (let's face it, if you have straight Cs in your pre-med prereqs, you're not going to bother applying). Take a school like UC Berkeley. I believe the acceptance rate is around 65%. That means around 35% who apply are rejected from every single medical school they apply to. Now take a school like Harvard, where over 90% of all applicants get into a medical school, and with an average GPA of even lower than that of Berkeley applicants, despite the fact that it's more grade-inflated. For the pre-meds out there that is a huge boon to attend Harvard over Berkeley, or another similar institution. The same concept applies to pre-laws, where GPA holds upmost importance in admissions. Some people want to go to a college just for the prestige. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. Prestige gets you places. These schools are so prestigious, in large part, because they are indeed very good schools to attend.</p>
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The same concept applies to pre-laws, where GPA holds upmost importance in admissions.
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<p>I think the verdict is still out on that one. There isn't really a concensus yet on how much the undergrad institution matters. Obviously going to HYPS would be beneficial, but the LSAT and GPA are more important overall and again, someone from Rochester or a comparable school with a higher LSAT/GPA would have favor in the process.</p>
<p>And I really don't agree that people like the pres of MIT are minorities.</p>
<p>Maybe you like to take a look at a pinned thread on the pre-med forums:</p>
<p>I think the verdict among many is that med schools and law schools care very little about which undergraduate school you attended and far more about your GPA. If they really care about the undergrad institution, don't you think that students from Berkeley, where grading is actually HARSHER, would be given a leg-up? Instead, those students actually need HIGHER GPAs than their peers from HYP to gain admission. So if you want to get into a good med school or law school, you want to go to a grade-inflated school like Harvard, Yale, Stanford, etc.</p>
<p>The LSATs are important, but that only helps my argument. At HYS, you'll have access to much more resources to help you score better on the LSATs. You'll have better peers, better professors, better advisers, etc. In fact, one explanation for the phenomenon I presented above is that even though the average admitted student from Harvard or Princeton has a lower GPA, they have strong LSATs.</p>
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but the LSAT and GPA are more important overall and again, someone from Rochester or a comparable school with a higher LSAT/GPA would have favor in the process.
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<p>Of course they would. But that's exactly my point. The guy from Rochester would need a higher LSAT and GPA. If the two guys have the exact same GPA/LSAT, the guy from Harvard wins. And in fact, I suspect that it would be easier to get a high GPA and LSAT from Harvard for reasons which I stated above. So yeah, if you go to Rochester, you could get into med school, but it's harder. Why would students want that? A student who wants to go to a medical school will want to attend the institution that makes it easiest for that student to get in. Why work to have higher GPA/LSAT when you don't have to?</p>
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And I really don't agree that people like the pres of MIT are minorities.
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<p>What I meant is, if you look up all the presidents at all the major universities, you'll find a heck of a lot more graduated from Harvard than U of Rochester. Now, if we were talking about those who graduated from Ivy Leagues compared to no-name universities, maybe the no-name universities would win, but only because there are thousands of those compared to eight schools in the Ivy League. That's a major misconception people have. They look at Harvard Law and see a guy from U of Florida, a guy from U of Illnois, a guy from a Cal State (yeah I think I saw a guy from a Cal State) and they think "well you can get into Harvard Law from anywhere." But you only see one guy from each of those colleges and a heck of a lot more from Harvard undergrad. So even though you see many guys from no-name schools, if you attend one of those no-name schools, Harvard Law will only pick one guy out of your graduating class, tops. That's a big difference from say, 20 or 30 guys from your class if you're in a top-20 school.</p>
<p>There is no consensus--you're kidding, right? Just look at the undergrad institutions for any top 10 law school class and you'll see there is indeed consensus, undergrad school matters.</p>
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Why would students want that?
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<p>Well obviously no applicant wants to be rejected from their top choice, but when these schools turn away 90% of their applicants, it should be expected by most. I imagine the point of the OP's post was that these students worry far too much on whether they are admitted to HYP, when in essence, many that will be rejected could do extremely well academically and probably WILL do well academically wherever they go, both with respect to GPA and the entrance exam. Preparing the application for your undergrad institution should certainly be a big deal, but you shouldn't be freaking out and feel like it's the end of the world if you are rejected. </p>
<p>Yes, I too saw the statistics for HLS' entering class and it is clear that there are many "1"s next to unknown universities. It is very tough to do and anyone wanting to go to HLS should position themselves properly by aiming as high as possible. But the difference in terms of academic quality between Case Western, for instance, and Cal State, is quite a bit. </p>
<p>Obviously, I am a believer in the importance (at least to an extent) of the undergrad institution as I am aiming high and preparing for law school in the future. I know it is well worth the money to attend a prestigious school if I intend to go to a T6 law school. However, I am not yet sure just how important it is. I will err on the side of caution, but it would be interesting to know what percentage of applicants from each school went to HLS instead of just the number that enrolled.</p>
<p>suze - I did not say that there was no concensus as to whether or not undergrad institution matters. Read it again and you will see that I stated there is no concensus as to how much undergrad school matters.</p>
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Well obviously no applicant wants to be rejected from their top choice, but when these schools turn away 90% of their applicants, it should be expected by most.
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<p>Ah-ha. So we agree that HYP are appealing choices to students, and legitimately so. I simply wanted to make the case that while students could "perform well at any school" in reality they could do better at certain schools than others, even if they don't put in as much effort. Thus, I think that while there is indeed a lot of hype surrounding the top colleges, they deserve a lot of it. I agree though that students shouldn't act like it's the end of the world.</p>
<p>Well, it does make one wonder when half of the graduating class receives the honors designation (such as happened at Harvard last year).</p>
<p>I'm sure Harvard's argument is that their students are so much better than the average student that the honors percentage is justified. True or not, it helps (as vicissitudes points out) in allowing these students to get into the prestigious medical schools, law schools, and other graduate programs.</p>
<p>Is it really any surprise then that there are many, many more students in the Harvard Law Program and Harvard Medical Program that got their undergradate at Harvard than there are students who got their undergraduate degree from any other school? Harvard does this to encourage the undergrads to keep applying to Harvard--and this, in-turn, keeps the admit percentage low--and their prestige rating high.</p>
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So we agree that HYP are appealing choices to students, and legitimately so
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<p>Haha...um, hell ya they are! I'm not arguing that: just agreeing with the OP that it's not the end of the world if you're rejected from HYP like so many here make it out to be.</p>
<p>Thing is, people don't necessarily need to go to a selective or prestigious school to be happy... however, it is not true that people are capable of being happy at any school. Sometimes, there are only certain places where a person can find happiness, or more frequently, certain types of places... It is worthy to note that there are generally schools very similar to the student's dream school, but less selective. However, those can sometimes be difficult to find</p>
<p>wow...so much anger in this thread...peace and love guys</p>
<p>Many worry about getting into well-known schools like the Ivy League because of pressure from parents (many Asians can attest to this), or from friends and the like.</p>
<p>But yes, the Ivy-/prestige-obsession at CC can be annoying.</p>
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But yes, the Ivy-/prestige-obsession at CC can be annoying.
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<p>What gets me on CC.com is how a program will be ranked, oh... 11th or something, and people chime in with "oh, it's not ranked very high, don't go there..."</p>
<p>Only here.</p>
<p>^^ haha srsly.</p>
<p>Oh our ranking-driven world ...</p>
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What gets me on CC.com is how a program will be ranked, oh... 11th or something, and people chime in with "oh, it's not ranked very high, don't go there..."
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<p>Of course. Remember U Chicago last year? Not many people paid attention to it. Then it actually made top 10 and people started talking about it on CC as a good school.</p>
<p>And we all know that Chicago became a good school that particular year.</p>
<p>Oh, my, then if there is a concern about universities where the President went to a second tier college, people should absolutely RUN from UCLA! Our new Chancellor Block, while receiving his undergraduate degree from Stanford, did, after all, only receive his masters and doctorate from University of Oregon. And, oh, gee, among other perks, his salary starts at $416,000 per annum. Yep, that crummy education at U of O really hurt him.</p>