This discussion was created from comments split from: Obsessive Parents: What are the reasons parents obsess over the college admissions process?. Did other parents of color have similar experiences or concerns in helping their child with the college process? Feel free to comment.
I would echo a lot of what has already been said. I’m a researcher by trade, and my profession (college professor) leads me to a natural concern about education for my kids. I don’t consider myself obsessive, but more thorough than anything else. (Of course, my kids would say I’m indeed obsessed about education. ;)) I’m extremely thorough in most facets of my life, for better and worse.
That said, as an AfAm parent, I also have a larger motivation.
My DD was interested in LACs. All of them were PWIs. It was VERY important that we researched colleges through the lens of Black students, and this didn’t just mean the stats on attendance. We talked to Black students and professors of color about campus culture, and academic and social opportunities at their colleges. We looked at the representation of Black students in leadership positions on campus, research opportunities and internships, clubs and activities, etc. It wasn’t just about the percentages of Black students on campus. I needed to know that the Black students at her chosen colleges were part of the community and not simply left behind or off to the side. I asked for the stats on graduation rates broken down by race and ethnicity, as well as gender. I needed to make sure the Black students graduated at the same rate (or higher, in the case of her chosen college) as their white peers. I wanted to know about bias reporting and the college’s responses to any past racial incidents. My research involved looking at things a lot of CC posters might take for granted. “Fit” had a much larger meaning for us.
Finally, studies continually show that for Black and Latinx students, prestige does matter. When you read all of the articles out there about the outcomes for students attending prestigious schools being comparable to their counterparts that don’t attend those schools, they are not including students of color. Evidence over the years repeatedly shows that these students do benefit from attending more elite institutions. Black and Latinx people are already starting at a disadvantage due to institutionalized racism. I want my DD and DS to have the best foundation possible.
So while CC was helpful for me in some basic ways, most of the heavy lifting was through my own research.
I would have used CC more if it had information specific to students of color. The reality is that there are not a lot of us that post, and the other information is more general. My favorite thread is the “AfAm HS Class of 2020,” due to the support and camaraderie. I look at CC as a great place to start if you’re clueless about the process or need help with financing college, but ultimately if you’re a person of color you need to go beyond the topics covered here.
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For those interested, here is a link to the AfAm Class of 2020 thread: http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/african-american-students/2153293-african-american-hs-class-of-2020-p1.html
@ProfSD - Perfectly articulated. The reason why our thread was so valuable was because there was an understanding and an encouragement within this community, a willingness to share, no competitiveness and not the tear downs that I so often see from the “experts” who put down the “merit chasers” or the people with “hooks” not to mention the suggestions/insinuations that the students of color get into the more elite institutions because of the need to diversify the campus/need for athletes not necessarily because they worked just as hard as anyone else, did just as much community service and excelled in just as many sports and extra curricular activities. Not to mention the discouragement of applying to elite colleges because we can not afford these colleges because the calculators said we can’t. Regardless of the college acceptance and college commitment of each member of the group, it was celebrated. Any discussion or lack of agreement was handled respectfully and with class. The AFAM HS Class of 2020 was a ray of sunshine and still is.
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@ProfSD, you said some things that I really identified with when talking about your DD’s college search. You and @Sarrip have perfectly articulated some of my own personal issues with some of the counsel of African American students on CC (the tone of poster responses is a big one for me, especially when talking to teenagers). The AFAM HS Class of 2020 has been a dream thread for me personally as the support given by participants was amazing to behold.
My kids always looked at the the basics around a school’s diversity, but we also encouraged our kids to looked at a lot of the same “periphery” aspects, especially around leadership, active participation in campus life, and students of color who were truly happy with their chosen institution. My kids also visited campuses, corresponded with other African-American students, and looked at obvious clues (one campus we visited was almost completely segregated among the races on the campus open space and food court despite having a relatively diverse student body).
CC is very good at directing a student to look at things in a generic sense (looking at the true cost of a school and how your family will pay, strength and rigor in major, prestige of a school, graduation rates, and even talk about fit), but there are definitely more subtle details that I believe are not talked about enough (especially around fit) that are important to the overall well being and success of POC (and to all students to some extent). I believe that more CC posters of color (like @EconPop, @Juliet, @ProfPD, @itsgettingreal17 and @Sarrip for example) and more awareness of these subtleties by all posters would help this current deficiency .
My family also talked in greater detail about whether a student body is more competitive versus being a more collaborative environment, resources that are available for students who need help (academic and mental) and how to access those resources at schools. My kids also talked directly to school administrators at their top choices about their very specific goals, hopes and dreams and what would each school do to help them reach those aspirations. I believe all students would be better of with a more detailed process, but with the graduation rates being lower for African-American students, it is even more important to spend time on the large and small details that encompass College admissions.
Fit as a student in general, but also as a person of color were high priorities for me as a parent. For all PWI schools we considered, I noted the % of Af Am undergrad students, graduation rate (general and Af Am), when possible I talked with Af Am students privately during tours/visits, carefully watched YouTube videos by Af Am students about the school (looking for cues that may not have been said verbally), asked about culture on campus generally and specifically among the Af Am students For example, is there a feeling of community among the Af Am students on campus vs everyone out for themselves, is there a place on campus where they can hang out and just be/ not be “on” all the time, are there regular meet/greet activities or an “active” black students union.
Other aspects we considered were access to internships and mentors (not just academic advisors), which I feel are vitally important especially if going straight into a job/career after undergrad and can make a difference for minorities competing for jobs. I think internships and a degree from an elite institution definitely can make a difference for minority students.
I have been on CC a long time. Apologizing in advance for the long post
I was not obsessed with the college process, but I did see first hand as a parent the disparity in the level of access to college counseling and information that was given to African American children and their white counter parts.
I say this as a NYC DOE district 2 parent (those of you who live in NYC, and know public school know that there is public school and there is District 2 public school).I remember my kid attending elementary school at one of the most coveted public schools in manhattan and most of the kids in Tribeca used the services of a tutor who was charging $75/hour in the early 1990s. For high school, she turned down Stuyvesant to stay at the small 6-12 test in magnet school with her middle school friends.
At my house, the college process was very interesting, because at the time, I worked in corporate life in HR for over 15 years where I was responsible for training, development, workplace learning and I was the college person (the “GC” for employees looking to finish college, attend grad school, EMBA programs etc). I knew a lot about college, i always channeled my inner nerd and could deep dive research anything.
We did ask some of the same questions posed up stream; in addition to the hair thing, she asked other black students if the school did a good job pf supporting and being supportive of Black students. I also read a lot of articles in the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education. I did look at the gaps in graduation rates between blacks and whites (Mount Holyoke made the list because it is a school where Black women graduate at a higher rate than White women). I remember reading the Harvard Magazine articles- **Roots and Race where I found that most of the blacks on college campuses are not African Americans with multi-generational roots in the US, but are either first generation or children of first generation immigrants from Africa/West Indies. I also read Harvard’s magazine article ** Thumb on the Scale, which talks about Socioeconomic affirmative action. I remember being in grad school, studying the work of Mary Waters work on immigration, inter-group relations, the formation of racial and ethnic identity among the children of immigrants, the challenges of measuring race and ethnicity again looking at Blacks with multi-generational roots in the US and first gen/recent immigrants. I had a lot of these discussions the years that I taught junior seminar to my high school. kids.
I remember when the guidance counselor told my child who had a 4.0 gpa and a 1510 on the SAT that she was not going to have a college to attend, but told her friend “Don’t worry, you will get into Conn College, Haverford, etc” when my child was tutoring her friend in AP physics and AP Calc BC.
My kid got the last laugh because she was accepted every where she applied (yes, I was petty; sent her flowers where I attached all of Chick’s acceptance letters). At the time, I felt if this was happening to my kid, who attended a “good school” and had a parent who was very well versed in the college process, what was happening with students who were first gens, attending poor performing schools, and did not have people guide them through the process.
So I took advantage of my company’s excellent tuition aid plan, went and got a bookend Masters in School Counseling to complement the corporate paid Masters in Educational Psychology , left corporate life and went to work for the NYCDOE. When I began working as a GC, I was committed to working in a Title I school where were challenges when it came to access and equity (turning down offers from my D’s high school, Stuyvesant and my old stomping ground- Brooklyn Tech).
While I took a position doing College Access and Equity, I always keep my GC hat on, because I know that education, especially in underserved black and
Latinix families helps to change the trajectory of the whole family. While money is ok, the fact is that Black and Latinx students are more likely to use their educations at elite schools to go back and serve in the communities where they grew up looking to pay it forward. One of my greatest joys is to see my former students as colleagues as one of my former students who went to college through Posse, reached out today to let me know she is starting her grad program to become a literacy specialist this fall.
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I have only attended a community college myself so I was clueless about the college process and I wanted to be prepared for my son. No one in my family has ever graduated from a 4 year college. On my son’s father’s side, they have gone to college but have incurred crippling debt. I knew there was a lot to learn so that my child could make an INFORMED choice. This led me to CC and other sites. We are not able to travel to many schools, so researching and being “obsessed” is the least I can do for my child.
My child has only been in a learning environment where being a minority is the norm, not the exception. Fit was the #1 criteria for us, paired along with academics. My son is multi-racial and it was important to me to make sure the black and brown students at any college he decided to attend were being supported. Not just looking at the numbers that are on campus. In fact, when I was able to visit one school with my son, I definitely asked the students that exact question.
The af am hs class thread is positive, and informative and I enjoy being a part of it, although I wish more threads like it are being represented on CC.
Unbeknowest to me beforehand, the college that my child attends, doesnt only affect our family, but it has made a ripple wave in our community. He is one of the rare few to go to a top college not on a sports scholarship.(This is for our community, people reading this, please dont generalize) And has been said before, studies have shown minorities do better at top schools. After we told people where he is going, we have gotten people asking advice for their kids.
It takes a village.
A lot of good ideas, I learned a lot ^^
Wow! @Profsd I feel like we are kin. Having spent a great deal of time and energy for my DD’s educational pursuits, I have paused at times as I want them to at least match my enthusiasm. Yet I’ve learned the process can be a bit overwhelming for them.
I have run into a similar concern that the PWI’s with a lower percentage of African American females and students period, are the schools that match what my daughter wants in a school but not necessarily the fit.
When I see a PWI that touts 100% graduation rate for black females, has a active frat & Sorority environment but none for Black students, it begs so many questions. For one what message are you sending? But two something is going on that is still enriching these students to excel.
So I am torn from a cultural fit perspective that leans more towards research institutions vs LAC’s that are great but don’t necessarily have a platform for the voice of black students.
I really would love to see what others have come up with in their research and what has been learned.
I completely get this. D20 had Syracuse on her initial list. And then, of course, we quickly removed it when their problems with antisemitism and racism over the past 6 years became public. The repeated incidents were not as shocking as the Admin’s response of ignoring the issues and sweeping them under the rug continually. In addition, H and I told D she should not even bother to look at Boston University because of their decades-long abysmal history with students and professors of color. (Hopefully the new hiring of Ibram Kendi can finally set them on a new path.) We are in MA so know BU’s history well, and refused to even pay for an application.
So while I understand your point, there is no guarantee Black student voices will be heard anywhere. That’s why an abundance of research is essential.
I don’t consider myself obsessive when it comes to my children’s education but rather concerned with school quality and overall fit. This has been true since they were preschoolers. I’m also an attorney so research and thoroughness are part of my natural skill set.
DD didn’t feel seen or heard in her predominantly white high school and I was determined that she would have an empowering college experience. We did a lot of research. We visited colleges and observed interactions between students, we looked at the resources and support available to students of color, we watched videos and read blogs by students of color about life at her preferred colleges, and we spent a lot of time exploring the surrounding city to assess our personal comfort level within the community. Some NE LACs that were initially high on her list didn’t make the final cut. We weren’t overly focused on prestige but it was instilled in me from a young age that I had to be twice as good for half the reward so I felt it was important that DD had a good educational foundation.
The Af-Am high school thread is a wonderful, supportive community. I lurk there and have learned a lot from the many knowledgeable posters. I look forward to joining the community when DS23 goes through the process.
The social part as noted upthread is so important, certainly more than I originally thought. I’m thankful others before me pulled my coattail on the import of researching those social factors. Dating options (AA numbers by gender), AA fraternities and sororities, athletic team makeup if they plan to be a student athlete, close proximity of other universities for example became part of my spreadsheet as well as the academic and monetary fit. It was a LOT of work for sure but, IMO, required to get to the best decision possible.
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One thing to keep in mind during this college search that has been on my mind the last couple of days is to remember who is going to college. As parents it’s so easy to get caught up into thinking about our hey days, what we wish we had accomplished etc and as a result try to live vicariously through out children (not necessarily on purpose). The one thing that my daughter’s high school counselor did was independent surveys for both the parent and the student regarding what was important to us individually and produced a list of colleges based on mutually agreed upon criteria and some slightly outside the box. We did draw the line with our budget but other than that everything else was open for discussion. Though my DH (born & raised in Brooklyn, NY celebrating Kwaanza, playing african drums etc) was hoping for a HBCU for our D20. D20 did not consider an HBCU’s (we have definitely gotten the side eye and some criticism). Because of D20’s experiences residing in a primarily urban area where the white population is less than 9% and of those very few send their children to the local public schools. Though she attended these schools up to middle school, she walked to a beat of a different drum and as a result was classified an “oreo”. Had she wished to attend an HBCU we would have supported this as well. For high school she gladly went to the New England Prep School which offered her a full 4 year academic scholarship. There she was indeed a minority in a way that she has never been before, yet she felt an acceptance that she did not have in our area. There she actually found her people and the upper classmen/members of the very strong BSU immediately took her under their wings. They have become mentors to her, though they have been attending college for years they read and edited her college essays, met up with her when she traveled to conferences in the states/cities where they attended college. So everyone’s journey will be different but personal to them. My daughter’s best friend will be attending Howard and we are just as excited for her.
Great thread. I totally agree that the larger minority platforms/resources at research institutions make a huge difference re feeling accepted and valued (and not invisible); was definitely my experience at an elite college that would have otherwise felt very foreign (and turned out life-changing, supportive and wonderful).
Two questions:
a) was there a thread also for Latinx students? if not, could one be created by reference to the AfAm one mentioned herein?
b) has anyone come across any independent college advisors specializing on URM applicants? I have researched online but have found no one.
One other ask: if someone has good resources re minority recruitment/outreach programs at T50 colleges and how to identify them, can you please post them here?
@gablesdad For your questions:
a) Yes! There is indeed a Hispanic subcategory under Specialty Admissions (along with the AfAm one, Athletic Recruits and others).
b) I know at least two. I’m not sure if we are allowed to post the names of them here so please feel free to message me. (I would do a search for fly-in programs which are a great tool colleges use for minority recruitment/outreach. More than a few T50 colleges have them, Wash U, Rice, Williams, Amherst and others…).
There is a forum section:
http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/hispanic-students/
Note: similar to:
http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/african-american-students/
@crimsommom2019 Thanks so much. I can’t figure out how to PM from my Android phone. The mail function only says inbox empty and no message option shows up when I click on your name. Could you please PM me?
@gablesdad Just sent you a message with a link for information on fly-in programs. It’s very comprehensive. We used it when D20 was looking at colleges last year.