Should I transfer out of WashU?

Transfer Students
1

Hi there! I apologize in advance for the long read, but I would really appreciate some advice. I am in quite a pickle at the moment. Running over the same scenarios over and over in my head only gets me so far.

I am currently a sophomore at WashU studying Math and Physics (and kind of Computer Science), and I am now entertaining the idea of transferring but wanted to hear thoughts from people who understand the transfer process, particularly doing it as late as I would.

I chose WashU initially because I wanted to attend a smaller school (my other top options were UCLA and UC Berkeley), but I was never super excited to go. I had heard amazing things from people I knew who attended or knew people who attended, so I went in expecting to at least be satisfied with my education. I was originally in the business school–I horrible experience, as I found the classes to be dull and failed to be intellectually stimulating in the slightest. Now, this semester I began a very heavy stem load–6 mostly upper div math/physics courses and a 1.0 credit lab–and I feel like I am finally learning something. However, studying remotely has demonstrated something to me. My twin brother is at UCB and is also very stem-focused, a Math and CS major who takes Physics classes for fun. I am shocked to see the disparity in our “equivalent” courses. While sometimes having easier courses isn’t so bad, it is pretty disappointing to see how much my education is lacking. Furthermore, I am very disappointed in the culture at WashU. I find that few people are as excited about learning as I am. Many of my peers are solely focused on getting a coveted business job, preparing to be an engineer, or plan to attend med school. I would love to just take my math and physics classes along with a wide variety of humanities classes; I have recently come to learn that I would really like to study some philosophy and ancient studies, among other things to supplement the STEM. While we do offer classes in these subjects, of course, the variety is rather limited, and I get the impression people use the humanities as a GPA boost. I want to be at a university where I have peers who would sit there and talk about linear algebra or quantum computing (I could talk about the double-slit experiment for hours), as well as discuss great philosophical or classic works (I am currently making my way through War and Peace to start, but I hope to get many books under my belt by the end of this semester). I know WashU is a fantastic university, but it almost seems like a $250,000 technical education, since people are so focused on post-graduate opportunities. I also have tried to meet as many people as I can, though I feel like I haven’t really been able to click with my peers super well. I really like my friends, but I would also like some friends who are as interested in knowledge for the sake of knowledge as I am. Many are very competent and capable people; they just have different ideas of what they want out of college. Furthermore, the political culture on campus makes me concerned, because there is absolutely no push from the university or the student body as a whole for discourse, a trait I think is absolutely critical at a university that purports to foster an education-centered workspace.

Here is my problem. I couldn’t have left after the first year to a school that would not have this problem, since my GPA was pretty mediocre. However, hopefully, by the time I would apply to transfer, I would have around 3.98ish if we ignore my first semester, which I think shows that I am a hard worker, especially when looking at my course load. Now, it is kind of late, so some schools will be very hard to finish on time. I would ideally like to study both math and physics but would be willing to drop math to a minor if necessary. I am about average second-year level for physics since it became an interest of mine only a few months ago (I have taken the introductory sequence, intro to quantum, an upper div electronics lab, and will be taking upper div mechanics next semester). In math, I am quite far despite my time wasted in the business school: the calculus sequence, the intro stats with multivariable calc, computational and proof-based linear algebra, the first course in real analysis, and next semester I plan to do at least 2 of abstract algebra, complex analysis, number theory and cryptography, and the second course in analysis.

So all of that is I think important context. Here are the universities to which I would consider applying:
-UChicago
-Harvard
-Yale
-CalTech
-MIT(though I believe they, like Princeton, a school I wouldn’t waste my time trying for, take people in more exceptional circumstances than mine)
-Columbia
-UPenn
-Duke
-Possibly some other: Northwestern, Dartmouth, Cornell, etc. though I am not sure if some of my issues would still exist there.

I am not considering UCLA and UCB for personal reasons.

I know that these schools are hyper-competitive, but I would really not like to bother with the transfer process if I am not going to be very satisfied with where I go. If I end up staying at WashU, I won’t be bitter. I am still happy and enjoying my education enough, but it pains me to see my four years and huge sums of money go towards something that is almost sub-par, at least in what I am looking to get out of a Bachelor’s degree.

TL;DR: I feel like the WashU educational environment isn’t right for me; do I apply to transfer?

I appreciate any help; I spend too much time worrying about my future right now!

2

Based on your somewhat lengthy & rambling post, I think that this may be more of a maturity issue than an issue with this particular school.

The fact that you look down upon the students’ academic focus at Cornell, Northwestern, & Dartmouth supports my initial impression.

Why do you think that Harvard, Yale, CalTech, Duke, MIT, Columbia, or Penn would be target schools for you ?

P.S. When writing, try to break up your post into paragraphs to make it more readable.

It is clear that you like math. Chicago, Brown, Harvey Mudd College, CalTech, Carnegie Mellon University might all be of interest to you. Purdue University is another to consider.

3

Have ghoul tried joining clubs in the things you are most passionate about ?
Your academic interests are wide and varied. Perhaps committing to more social interactions with clubs and intramural activities will be most helpful in your overall development.
Personally don’t see any reason to transfer in your explanations that are substantial enough to justify the effort or that you will have a better experience elsewhere.
Best of luck on your decision.

4

@Publisher

Hi Publisher,

Thank you for your response. I apologize for the rambling; I agree I definitely have a lot of unnecessary fat in there. I may take this post down and make a more concise and readable post. My reasons for not putting Cornell, Dartmouth, and Northwestern down confidently are not because I feel like they don’t have great students; I have specific reasons for all three of them that are unique to the school–they are fantastic universities.

I have never made a post on CC before, and so I wasn’t thinking super clearly about formatting, etc.

It is not that I think those universities are target schools, and I am sure I wouldn’t end up applying to all because of time constraints. Some of those were just my dream universities when I originally applied, so I figured why not if I have the time. Others I have specific reasons for other than the fact that they are just highly ranked.

I always forget how excellent Brown is for math, so thank you for reminding me.

I think might just be going stir-crazy at home too. I have a lot more time to ruminate than ever before.

Again, thank you for the response. I guess I should probably also just try to recognize what I have more being at WashU, and take into consideration the fact that I am away from all of my peers.

@lgs03

Hi lgs03,

Thank you for your feedback.

I have tried some, but I can experiment more and see if I can find some like-minded people.

You may be right, and I may just be looking for something that doesn’t really exist. I just sometimes feel like my parents are sacrificing so much for me, and that there are maybe better places for them to spend their money. I could be mistaken though.

5

Washington University in St Louis is a very good university. I was impressed by the faculty and the students (the ones that I met) when I visited quite a few years ago. The Covid pandemic has made it more difficult to gain full advantage of what any university has to offer. However this is true at any university and hopefully the pandemic will be over at some point.

I do like the fact that you are taking some computer science to go with your math and physics. I was a math major who gave up on physics after quantum physics. Having some computer science classes was IMHO a valuable addition.

6

@DadTwoGirls

Yes, I imagine the pandemic did little to help, especially with all of my friends back in St. Louis while I am home. Maybe the disconnection is clouding my thoughts. Also, hopefully, my experience outside of the business school will be different, but without the opportunity to meet fellow STEM enthusiasts in person, I have yet to meet like-minded individuals.

I’m glad to hear you think computer science is useful. I actually find it interesting that you say that you stopped physics because I find real analysis to be more challenging than my intro quantum course, but everyone’s brain works differently.

7

Your impressions appear remarkably similar to impressions occasionally expressed by some well-informed academics. See *Excellent Sheep/i, for example. For a more concise example, early in this interview you will read a critical reaction and a description of an ideal that align virtually exactly with your own: https://www.hamilton.edu/news/story/faculty-jason-cieply-russian-studies.

8

A primary hurdle in writing a transfer application is in justifying your reasons for wanting to leave your current school and explaining why the target school would be a better fit for you.

An example of a solid reason for transferring that may apply to your situation is that one’s desired major and / or courses are not offered by one’s current school, but are at the target school.

Your concern seems to focus on difference between an overly pre-professional atmosphere versus an intense academically oriented campus culture.

One approach to avoid the appearance of a maturity issue is to avoid blaming others by focusing on how you have changed in your goals and in your view of education after a year and a half of college.

A switch from a pre-professional major in business to math justifies a reevaluation of your current academic environment, in my opinion.

Have you looked over the majors and courses offerings at Carnegie Mellon University ? If not, it might be worthwhile as CMU has a very serious academic climate.

9

“I find real analysis to be more challenging than my intro quantum course”

I was not a big fan of real analysis either. I ended up in applied math, and then with a master’s degree in Operations Research. Probability, statistics, algorithms and dynamic processes are more to my liking. OR is IMHO a very cool potential major that you might want to be aware of.

10

WashU has always had a pre-professional reputation, so I’m not sure why other posters are brushing off your criticisms. OP, put in some transfer apps and see what happens. Personally, I would recommend you apply to some intellectual LACs like Carleton. I think you’ll find the intellectual stimulation you’re seeking at such LACs more so than at many of the schools on your current list.

11

OP’s other thread reveals that she prefers a larger school than her current one.

I read OP’s other thread after writing my responses here.

OP’s original post in this thread blames others when the real factor may be change in herself.

12

Without knowing any back history (but I read that @Publisher has written), it does seem like a Lac would be more what you really want. But this also seems to be the case of not finding your peeps on campus yet. There must be some clubs/activities to join to find them. I kinda laugh since there is a type for WashU. Your finding out that yes being career driven and focused is a driving force at lots of schools. Don’t think Northwestern is less then that. It’s probably more then that. Your schools seem to be very similar and you will end up in the same situation.

If your not being challenged, then that is a different story.

School has Facebook or Reddit? Then post something that you want to meet students with your similar likes. See what happens. My son was the only kid to answer a school Facebook inquiry as a freshman on a subject he really wanted to explore. As a senior now that turned into a large student org with weekly meetings and 3 conferences at school. Endless opportunities. Never know what will happen until you put yourself out there.

13

@itsgettingreal21 Thank you for understanding. I will check out some LACs. My only concern would be doing research as I am considering a physics PhD, but maybe that’s possible at the well-funded LACs.

@DadTwoGirls I’ll check that out. It seems potentially very interesting. If I do stay at WashU, I believe that we offer a couple of courses in OR.

@Publisher I don’t believe that I have another thread, or that I ever expressed anything about a school other than explicitly saying I did not want to attend two larger schools-UCLA and UCB. I also find it a little bit bizarre that you assumed I am a girl–I am not. I apologize for it sounding like I was “blaming” others, as that was not my intention. I think schools like WashU are perfect for some people who want that environment, and there is no problem with that. I don’t expect a school to conform to exactly what I want; that would be a preposterous expectation.

Yes, I will look at Carnegie Mellon again. I originally applied to their business school, so I would have to look more carefully at their math and physics, but from what I am heard they are very “up there” with the other big technical schools. Also, I am particularly interested in studying mathematical logic/philosophy specifically related to math and physics, which WashU doesn’t offer. At Yale, for example, there is a particular Math+Philosophy major that caught my eye.

@Knowsstuff Yes, you may be correct. I only had a (short) year to meet people and exploring other departments could introduce me to the peers that I am seeking.

As for your LAC comment, see my first response in this thread. And yes, I assumed Northwestern had a similar vibe, as a lot of WashU consists of people whose dream school was Northwestern. This is why NU specifically was in the “maybe” group. I am sure some of the other schools I put, like Penn, have a similar vibe. I understand the kids who want to just go into finance or consulting, I was like that and am still considering those career paths, but I am disappointed in how the booming of those industries have taken away from a love of learning(I am sure there are many who do love learning still, but when a school like Harvard sends I believe 41% of graduates down those career paths, it does concern me slightly, especially when a massive percentage of these students did not begin university with that goal. It seems like they are almost just churning out money-making machines).

I initially thought that I was being challenged, but then when I see how much downtime I have after taking effectively 7 math/physics classes with an internship and a TAship, I find that something doesn’t really add up. It’s difficult to know if I am getting an equivalent experience as I would at a school that maybe has a larger focus on math and physics. Maybe I am mistaken in how the difficulty stacks up between other schools and WashU, but I do know that, at least at UCB, classes tend to go more into depth. WashU is very STEM-focused, but I believe much of that is directed towards chem and bio. I’ll check out Facebook and “pull the trigger” if someone else hasn’t. Thank you for your advice!

14

Higher level classes can be more interesting and challenging. Maybe your just a really smart person and you need to talk to an advisor to see what your missing. Stay away from the business kids. Yep, money making machines…LOL…

15

OP: I apologize for confusing you with another poster who has posted two threads in the transfer forum.

16

The opportunities for mentored research in physics may be one of best reasons for considering a well-resourced LAC. In the examples below, supported undergraduate research led to consideration for the prestigious Apker:

https://www.pomona.edu/news/2018/10/22-eric-cooper-18-wins-top-honor-physics

https://www.hamilton.edu/news/story/elise-lepage-18-an-apker-physics-award-finalist

Regarding your interest in mathematics, you may want to seek the print edition of the Princeton Review’s college guide, in which schools such as UChicago, Harvard, Caltech, MIT, Harvey Mudd, Amherst, Pomona, Hamilton, Williams, Haverford and Reed appear in a sampling, “Great Schools for Mathematics Majors.”

17

As I read through your thread, before I reached the end, I thought - this poster would potentially be happy at UChicago. The culture you describe is exactly the environment my daughter enjoys there. There is enthusiasm about learning for learning’s sake and students are eager to discuss academic subjects - in addition to more traditional student activities. You should check out the course catalog to see if the depth of classes in the areas you enjoy exists but, one of her friends who just graduated was a math major who devoured the math curriculum and is now pursuing his math PhD and he seemed to find the depth of courses he desired. Unfortunately, though, I can shed no light on the transferring process.

18

Funny you say that because I did also but a hard grt5. To me the campuses /buildings are similar

19

@merc81 Thank you for sharing those resources! After I read the responses about LACs, I did some digging to see if my impression of them was incorrect, and I found many opinions that concurred with yours. I even noticed that Williams’ second-most popular major was math–crazy! I also noticed that Williams beat out many schools with Apker awards as well. I will have to do some more research on Williams, Hamilton, Pomona, etc. I have the Princeton Review book (though it is a few years old), and I’ll check out their list again. My initial approach to the college search was very different, so I think a new, and I would like to think wiser, set of eyes on some of these schools would benefit me greatly.

@CUandUCmom Yes, I very much agree. I hovered over the ED II button for hours on the last day I could change from RD and decided against it (not that I would’ve gotten in for sure or anything). I think at the time I may have made the right decision, but I have matured a lot as an individual, and I believe that their style of education would help me flourish. I was actually texting a friend who goes there about it, and he seemed to think that I would fit in quite well. I love the idea of a core curriculum, as I think it would be enriching to read some of the greatest pieces of literature ever written and discuss them with excited peers. I also think the very theoretical approach to subjects would be right up my alley. It is a squeeze to get the core in with the major requirements, but it looked like I could do a math major and possibly make a physics minor if they are generous with transfer credits. It is naturally very competitive to get in, but I think if by some miracle they realize how well I would fit into the climate, it would be a life-changing experience. I think with a math degree from UChicago I would still be very set up to pursue a PhD in theoretical physics, which would be great. Thanks for your advice! It makes me feel like I was not wrong in my evaluation of UC.

20

You will note a strong overlap in these fields when studying certain topics. As examples, general relativity relies heavily on both math and physics, and you might find a course in mathematical physics, which, obviously, crosses disciplines for its content.

Should you attend a college with a more flexible curriculum, you can develop your own core with carefully chosen courses in areas such as religious studies, history, classics, government and literature.

As a suggested resource, you can browse IPEDS, which shows the popularity of various majors within each college’s entry, e.g. https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=Pomona&s=all&id=121345#programs. This becomes more meaningful, of course, after you adjust for total enrollment.