In a different thread, @UCBalumnuswrote, “What do people think they are paying for, or is worth paying for, at colleges?” @FiftyFifty1 wrote a response to that question as well, and I’d love to hear others’ opinions on the topic. Hopefully, in not having any particular colleges in mind or any particular family’s situation as a point of discussion, it can be a sharing and brainstorming of ideas without judgment about what other people view as worthwhile.
As I tend to be long-winded, I’ll let others post first. UCBalumnus & FiftyFifty1 can either copy their text over here, or expound further, as desired.
What do people think they are paying for, or is worth paying for, at colleges?
Academic content being taught and assessed.
Academic experience (i.e. in terms of class sizes, contact with instructors, etc.).
Credentialing and pre-professional preparation (including the effect of prestige, status, ranking, etc., or specific credentials needed for teaching, nursing, engineering, etc., or the BA/BS degree that is commonly required by employers “just because we can”).
Non-academic aspects of the experience (i.e. residential versus commuter college experience).
I was an engineer and my kids are both engineers. So, what we were “paying for” was the pre-professional preparation. The other 3 aspects (academic content, the academic and non-academic aspects) were very important considerations and shaped the decision as to which college.
We paid for location location location for both of our kids. Both wanted to be in urban areas. One chose Boston. The other wanted a more pleasing climate and chose Santa Clara University.
Both schools offered the schooling we hoped for…but those extras mattered for four years.
We paid for rigor. Academic, intellectual, non-classroom- however you looked at it, we were not willing to pay more for nicer dorms, better parties, easier access to surfing or skiing. But a kid who presented us with an option which might cost more but offered more challenge- we were open to that discussion.
We only asked that they take full advantage of the opportunities- The Dalai Lama is debating Tony Blair on “is violence ever appropriate for national defense”? Go to the debate. You have a choice between working as a bartender off-campus vs. doing the footnotes and edits to a professors book? Work for the professor. You’ve been recommended for a summer fellowship at a highly regarded think tank but that means you won’t be able to join your frat brothers at the beach over Fourth of July weekend? You know the answer already…
What do people think they are paying for, or is worth paying for, at colleges?
Academic content being taught and assessed.
Offering education in a broad range of subjects, particularly those in the liberal arts (non-preprofessional coursework)
An effective education, meaning that there is demonstrable growth in the subject and core liberal arts skills (reading, analyzing, writing, etc) from the beginning of each semester to the end of each semester and thus, significant growth from a first-year to a graduating senior
Offering one or more majors in fields that my kid would like to major in
Academic experience (i.e. in terms of class sizes, contact with instructors, etc.).
Small class sizes (less than 20) taught by professors with very few, if any, classes with more than 50 students
Classes where discussion and/or experiential learning predominate
Contact with professors outside of office hours is encouraged and normal
Most full-time faculty are on the tenure-track and part-time faculty members are professionals working in the subject
A study abroad experience of at least one-semester, and preferably one year, where all classes transfer back for full credit with minimal hassle
ETA: A satisfactory graduation rate
Credentialing and pre-professional preparation (including the effect of prestige, status, ranking, etc., or specific credentials needed for teaching, nursing, engineering, etc., or the BA/BS degree that is commonly required by employers “just because we can”).
Internships or research positions that relate to my kid’s interests
Strong networking and/or support to get outside internships or full-time employment, including resume & interview prep
If a professional major is sought (architecture, engineering, education, etc) then the program is accredited by the appropriate organization
If there is a test required for professional certification/graduate school entrance, that students do well on it (particularly in comparison to the student’s standardized test scores from high school)
The reputation of the school is one that is respected or at least does no harm to any of its alumni
Non-academic aspects of the experience (i.e. residential versus commuter college experience).
A residential campus where most students reside AND do not go home frequently
A collegial, collaborative environment (as compared to a competitive & cutthroat one)
A campus that has numerous extracurriculars, from sports, arts, etc, including several that interest my kid. There should be non-competitive/exclusive opportunities to participate in extracurriculars as well (i.e. no competing to get into popular clubs)
A campus where there is no or minimal Animal House-style Greek system.
A campus where open, respectful dialogue is encouraged
A campus where there is a broad range of diversity (racial, national, sexual, political, religious, geographic, etc)
A location that is within a designated geographic area and/or has strong connections to an area
We paid for a school with strong academics including research and offered the extra curricular my daughter had spent 15 years developing. Others may disagree, but ultimately she wanted to find a place she could continue to pursue her passion - luckily we could afford it.
Rigor of curriculum, collaborative environment, small class sizes (mostly<20), access to and attention from high quality faculty, access to high quality research opportunities, prestige, ranking overall and in the field of interest.
How likely is it that you can find all of those characteristics in one college, and which of them are likely to be difficult to find in combination with which others?
Probably dependent on major – it is likely that majors with many pre-meds have a more competitive atmosphere. More directly related to the college, if any majors have competitive secondary admission, that is likely to create a more competitive atmosphere among those trying to get into that major.
This mostly means choosing a college that is the most academically selective as possible and has students with the least financial stress (i.e. those from wealthy families, or whom the college gives good financial aid or scholarships). However, an individual student’s likelihood of graduation is more likely to be based on the individual student’s academic and financial characteristics along with the net price of the college for that student.
"This is a terrific question! My kid has a couple of friends who will be attending school in the Netherlands. Here is what they will be getting:
small class sizes with rigorous academics
degree in 3 years (because few requirements outside of major due to IB diplomas already)
Universities are very well respected but not in a “exclusive designer handbag” way at all. The degree provides both skills and a credential but is not a luxury good.
no dorms, but lots of independent student apartments nearby. Inexpensive. No amenities except shared kitchens. But cool because students from all the universities in the city share and mingle.
minimal amenities: if you need a doctor you go to a doctor like any adult does. If you want a gym, you buy a membership to a gym like any adult. If you need a therapist, you hire a therapist. If you want to play sports, you join a community or club team.
Universities (even great ones) are not hard to get into. But if you turn out to be unable to do the work, they will kick you out.
all dirt cheap
cool city to explore.
My kid would thrive with this plan. Nothing like this in the states."
One of my kids had three criteria for college choices…in this order.
Strong sciences
Ability to play in the college orchestra and take private lessons without being a music major.
Pleasing climate (meaning…no snow)
We felt these were reasonable criteria. Frankly, the hardest one to find was number 2. But she did find schools that satisfied all three criteria. And we supported her choices!
What a great thread! Excellent, and I will bookmark this one.
To me, it is about helping my children grow and be exposed to things they never dreamt of. A place that can help transform them and open them to new ideas. I was lucky that this is what happened to me.
I am curious about the “pre-professional” focused schools, and I am very curious what others think about relatively young folks being certain at an early age what they want to do. At least for me, that would have been a huge mistake. I started off wanting to be a doctor, and then became a lawyer. It was college, and all the experiences that went with it, that helped me realize that.
Here’s what my engineering daughter wanted in a university:
Strong career readiness focus
Hands on engineering classes starting first semester and throughout
Excellent labs, facilities, shops, and maker spaces
Internship and co-op integration
Collaborative atmosphere
Research opportunities
Ability to continue participating in theater
Not in the south, or west of the Mississippi
Not urban
Not too small
We visited 15 schools, she applied to 8. All 8 checked off the first 8 things on her list and most schools met all 10 criteria. Prices after merit ranged from $11K/year to $80K/year. For us, prestige wasn’t a factor on the list and honestly some of the reach schools we visited felt too cutthroat and the kids seemed too stressed for my D.
My D has nearly a dozen high school friends in her same major at schools all over the country, at all price points. They are having very similar experiences and all have well paying jobs or grad school lined up.
I also started off college with pre-med intentions and shifted gears after a horrific summer internship experience at a hospital.
That said, my D was laser focused on engineering since she was in middle school. Her dad, uncle, grandfather, etc…are all engineers. She was heavily involved in science Olympias, robotics, engineering camps and programs since she was little, took engineering courses in high school, etc… We trusted her when she put together her criteria. IMO, the worst that could have happened is she changed major and possibly transferred. Not the end of the world.
Well, we didn’t pay, but our only criteria was academic excellence and a curriculum’s ability to enrich our son’s mind. Nothing else. We would have paid for any school/degree our son chose. I explained in detail here what we believe college is for.
After a baseline determined by DH and I about educational quality (and I 100% agree with ChoatieMom’s link about what education’s purpose is), the things we were specifically willing to pay for were:
D20:
Professors whose research* areas meshed with her interests within the fields of study she thought she wanted to pursue.
Traditional campus feel, small campus pop. size (under 2500)
Supportive, collaborative department for Pre-DPT focus
Small class sizes
Internship placements
Social fit/ability to be as active in dance and other physical activities as possible
D24
Food choice and quality
Location, location, location (New England, preferably MA or ME)
Course options (lots of interests, not clear on which one is primary)
Proximity to cities, but not in city
LGBTQ+ friendly
Each child completely different in terms of interests, needs and wants when it comes to colleges. So what we are willing to pay for is different for each. However, our budget for each child will be basically the same. Our budget is our budget and the trick for us was finding the schools that have as many of the important pieces as possible with the budget each child is working with.
True, which might mean those schools are off the table, or at least further down the list if kiddo isn’t planning in being in one of the more competitive majors/secondary admissions. But I have heard of schools where pre-med kids are having study groups together, etc. Not all of them are cutthroat.
I agree that there is a strong relationship here. But I said satisfactory, not stellar. Personally, alarm bells start to go off when a university’s graduation rate drops below 50%. That’s a far cry from a 98% grad rate that some of the Top X colleges have. Admittedly, I’d prefer a higher graduation rate, and if a school otherwise seemed great that had a grad rate below 50%, I would definitely delve further to see if there were extenuating circumstances we felt comfortable with.
In looking at retention rates, I will frequently look to see if they are transferring to a different institution or leaving higher education altogether. That also tells me something beyond just whether decisions are being made due to tough finances.
UCBalumnus & FiftyFifty1 can either copy their text over here, or expound further, as desired. 