1~2 gap years During high school for non-academic fine art program?

Parents Forum
41

The issue is not her working hard. The issue is not her excelling.

HS kids have their own lingo and their own friendship patterns and their own ways of communicating. When you post things like “no matter what” and “for sure” it suggests to me that you haven’t spent a lot of time around HS girls. Talented, smart, hard-working HS girls still need to learn to navigate a social terrain. Girls who excel need to figure out who they are in addition to being smart and talented- are they also athletic and smart and talented, or kind (or nasty), smart and talented? This is the oxygen in the air in HS. Figuring it out.

You are nodding your head like you understand my posts, but I fear that every time your D hits a roadblock emotionally or socially there’s a voice in her head showing her to the exit. Why invest in making friends when you are leaving? Why try out for the debating team when the accepted pattern is researcher/grunt work year 1, alternate and then debater year 2, champion debater year 3 and then team captain year 4? Why even bother? Why try out for the Spring musical when everyone knows that Freshman are in the chorus or stage crew, and it takes until junior year to get cast as the lead? Why propose a change to the honor code when you won’t be around in two years to see it take effect? Why why why?

Do you see how you are very unconsciously and with all best intentions undermining her successful transition with an exit plan? Do you see how you’re subconsciously setting her up by saying that she will excel no matter what?

Maybe she won’t excel. Maybe she’ll work hard and some class will whip her butt. And she’ll sweat out a low B at the end but will have learned a ton and be a better person for it. Isn’t that what you want? Not for her to constantly be excelling, but to challenge herself and sometimes sweat out a B???

you sound like a terrific parent. Let her be a terrific kid. She doesn’t need to plan her professional career- art or science- right now. She just needs to start HS and be a kid.

42

“I asked her the question you are asking. Her answer was that I shouldn’t take her declaration made when she was too young at 7 as face value, and she now doesn’t want to limit herself as an artist only.”

If I’m reading the story right, she’s what, 8th grade? 13 or so? I wouldn’t take any declaration about a future career seriously from a 13-yo either. It’s really no more “settled” than when she was in 7. Why does she have to make decisions about what she’s going to study in college and be/do for a living at all? Why can’t she just either a) go to the boarding school that’s been identified or b) go do this European atelier-thing and then let it all play out?

Apologies if I’ve missed her age or her backstory.

43

@blossom ,

The biggest reason that she wants to go to a high school, and I the reason I support it, is to experience those typical high social terrain, both ups and downs. Her goal is not to become a team captain year 4, but to do the researcher/grunt work with other girls year 1, and cherish the memory for the life. And the goal is not finishing high school with number of best friends, but to enjoy the process of making new friends. That’s the fun challenge she is longing for.

She already knows that she can completely trash the entire high school academics and still transfer to a decent California public university using her already collected 60+ community college credits with near perfect GPA, which she was lucky to maintain after taking many challenging courses that she was getting B’s until professors curved at the end.

But really, I agree with you that sharing exit plans can only be detrimental at this point. I won’t share it with her and hold my further research on the subject for now.

44

@Pizzagirl, you are correct on her age and grade. As you pointed out, she withdrew her former career plan and decided to wait until the end of high school. But she will consider options during the time, and I am only trying to help her by giving her diverse experience and information.

45

@blossom, “I honestly don’t see what a year in Spain or the other ateliers give her UNLESS she is affirmatively going to pursue art in college”

She will enjoy dong sculpting focused arts all day and night with other art enthusiastic people, and will have diverse life experience to remember, which are desirable by themselves even if they don’t help anything.

I am still curios how much of the cost (time, money and effort) can be somewhat mitigated by it’s positive side effect on prestige college admission with non-art major, in the form of an exotic EC.

46

Don’t fetishize an exotic EC. Can it help? of course. Can it have no impact whatsoever? of course. So many other variables go into the mix. One Adcom may see it as proof of her talent and ability. Another sees it as the bank of mom and dad bankrolling a lengthy stay in Europe without grades, evaluation, and accountability while pursuing something fun. You can’t predict.

There are kids getting into Princeton every day with nothing more exotic than being promoted to shift supervisor at the local pizza restaurant where they worked every weekend through high school. There are kids getting into Yale whose “exotic” EC was taking care of a household and younger siblings while a single parent held down a job.

My guess is that you live in an affluent area where the “arms race” on exotic has left "normal’ HS pursuits in the dust. But I know kids of extraordinary intellectual and academic ability whose exoticism was ordinary in the extreme. So pursue the atelier and all that stuff if that’s what your D wants to do once she gets there. But you can’t predict whether it will move the needle at all- and watching kids with “ordinary” activities get into schools which reject your D can be a pretty painful lesson.

47

“am still curios how much of the cost (time, money and effort) can be somewhat mitigated by it’s positive side effect on prestige college admission with non-art major, in the form of an exotic EC.”

Either this atelier-thing is the right thing for her as a PERSON, or it’s not. It is her development as a person that should drive the decision (and consequent investment in time, money, effort). Not because it will give brownie points down the line.

48

@Pizzagirl, point well taken. She wants to do two Summer workshops at ateliers, next Summer in the U.S. and following Summer in Europe. We will have better ideas then.

49

You don’t have to spend this much energy on her future right now. You really just have to keep finding ways for whatever her current interests are, to develop. Follow her lead. For a kid like yours, I agree with someone else that mentors would be most helpful.

Plenty of colleges (as opposed to art schools) offer majors in art, and there are some double degree programs as well (look at Tufts/Museum School). Even Harvard has increased its offerings and focus on applied visual arts. And any artist or musician can pursue another major and still do art. At some point schools like Brown or Amherst, that don’t have gen ed distribution requirements, might offer a good way to do both art and another major. There are also schools like Bennington, Sarah Lawrence, Skidmore that offer a lot of art,independent work and interdisciplinary work.

There will be a lot to explore- in a few years.

Right now it can wait.

I don’t understand why your daughter accumulated 60 credits at community college. Doesn’t that mean impact on financial aid for her, and even scholarships meant for freshmen? It isn’t always a good thing to enter college with that many courses done. For instance, art majors have a sequence of classes and she will have to do them anyway. Plus, for some, community college can be less than inspiring (one of mine attended classes there, and the place is supportive, but the one we have is like a mediocre high school).

50

@compmom, I will keep your advises. Double majoring sounds interesting. I won’t explorer that now, but will keep that in mind too.

She first registered to a local community college to take advanced art courses at 10. She interviewed VP of student affairs with her portfolio and impressed the VP enough to allow her to register. Later she took some high school / AP level general education courses at there, as they offered the best education opportunities.

If she will go to major arts at a U.S. school, probably she will have to retake the foundation courses. That’s alright, since it will be at higher level/expectation. At this point, I am thinking that U.S. may not be the best country to study fine arts in college. There is too much focus on general education, pedagogy or commercial applications.

We carefully selected best available professors in three community colleges close by. Each and every courses she took provided supportive and excellent education. I heavily researched each professors on ratemyprofessor, myedu, google, facebook and what not. Ones that turned out to be not good, she dropped the course.

Because she took those before graduating high school, so colleges will give freshman status no matter how many courses she took. I confirmed with admissions at several colleges already.

51

What if the collective wisdom of CC said, “OMG NO! No one who has ever taken a gap year in high school has ever gotten back on tract and gotten into an Ivy!” Would that change your mind in any way?

Of course students have taken breaks and gone back to high schools and still gotten into elite schools. Some do it for medical reasons, some do it because their parents need to go overseas for a year and they want to go too, some do it for sports, or acting, or to study art or ballet. Many also continue with school, although not at a top level, while they do their activities. I know a lot of hockey players who leave home and go to high schools in Detroit or Canada or Iowa, live with host families, and play hockey at the jr level. Some take an extra year to graduate high school, or some graduate and take an extra year to play before applying to colleges. What schools are those players going to? Yale and Harvard and Wisconsin and other schools with hockey teams. Some never go to college. Some don’t play hockey anymore because they liked it when they were 10 and even when they were 16, but now that they are 20 they don’t want to play anymore. It is not unusual to see a 20 year old freshman hockey player because they did take that gap year(s).

If we all had to be what we declared as our careers when we were 7, we’d have way too many firemen and football players and ballerinas and rock stars.

52

@twoinanddone , Yes that would have changed my mind. About students taking gap years during high school for various reasons, I have done my homework and I knew it. But thanks for reminding me. I am not trying to push my daughter become an artist based on yer old declaration. I am only hoping that she would be finding what she really wants to do and have a best education plan, unbound by conventional ideas on how things should be for everyone.

I know I have little regard to how things are usually done. I don’t think outside of box, I don’t have a box. I try to be creative, and don’t take no as an answer unless I am convinced with logic. It has been working for me. But I feel that it ended up rubbing some people in the wrong way. I am sorry for that. It wasn’t my intention.

I had a genuine question that I couldn’t figure it out well enough. It wasn’t if dd should take a gap year. The answer to that is too personal and individual. It wasn’t if it will help in admission either. It was “how much would it help,” if dd took it. I still didn’t get a satisfying answer for that. But it was good to hear many different advises on different angles about the idea. I thank all of you for that.

But now I feel that we have exhausted all the concerns, issues and explanations. I am finding myself repeating the same defensive explanations which is not productive. I would love to take any more advises and questions on PM, unless there is another issue that’s better to be shared in the thread.

Thank you all.

53

@SculptorDad , I know you have indicated you want to close this thread, and I don’t want you to make you feel any more defensive than you already are feeling, but I have been wondering something. You don’t need to answer me, I am just throwing this out there:

What is the need for your (or your daughter’s) hurry in all this? Why, as an artist, does she need to take a year as a teenager for a total immersion in another country?

Am I missing something? Artists don’t have an expiration date, or a narrow window of time to achieve at an elite level, do they? I mean, if your daughter was, for example, an elite gymnast I believe our answers might reflect the reality of the life of a gymnast. A kid aiming for elite competition in a sport highly dominated by peak performance levels at a young age, and the need for altering schooling to allow for that - well that is something quite different than a middle schooler who is a very talented artist, and who wants to reach a high artistic level.

It seems to me that art, and the development of an artist, takes time and maturity. Intensive training, at the expense of developing other sides of her life would seem - to me, anyway - to limit her artist’s heart and soul development a bit.

You don’t need to respond to this.

54

@SculptorDad, you’re going about this all wrong, as many people are trying to tell you.

Top colleges are inundated by tens of thousands of qualified applicants, the vast majority of whom are “bunched” together: they are basically qualified, but hard to differentiate. Things like grade inflation, course load inflation (stacking up tons of AP or similar caliber classes), and dilution of the meaning of test scores (which are hard to interpret due to test preparation, superscoring, and taking the tests multiple times) make it harder and harder for adcoms to tell applicants apart. But even beyond meeting a threshold in terms of being qualified, it’s extremely challenging for adcoms to separate applicants, many of whom are “polished” for application purposes. Adcoms could probably fill a strong class by picking randomly. “Hooks” make things slightly easier (given 2 equally qualified applicants, why not pick the one who is a URM or a legacy), but only go so far.

http://www.manhassetsca.org/HighSchool/articles2010-11/DonBettertonpresentation2011.05.17.pdf

Paradoxically, adcoms want kids who are not “polished” for the application process: they want kids who are qualified, who are passionate about whatever they do, and who do it “naturally”, without regard as to whether it will get them in to a top college. MIT admissions officer (and CC poster) Chris Peterson calls this “applying sideways”:

http://mitadmissions.org/blogs/entry/applying_sideways

Adcoms at top schools are pretty adept at sniffing out “polishing”. There’s a big difference between the kid who does an EC because he/she loves it - especially if they pour their heart and soul into it, do it for years, and become very good at it - or one who does it because they think it will look good on a college application. Adcoms love the kids who do things off the beaten path - because that interests them, not because they think it will look good - and the kids who do things even if it may hinder their application, because they love it.

You’re trying to “polish” your daughter. Let her be. Let her develop naturally, and apply “sideways”. From what you describe, she has plenty of ability and accomplishment to be competitive at whatever path she chooses. When the time comes, there will be lots of opportunities to package and present her accomplishments to her best advantage. But don’t worry about it now.

So if this were my daughter, I’d let her go to the 3 week summer program in Barcelona. It sounds like a great experience for any passionate young sculptor. And if SHE decided she wanted to do a 1-2 year gap year, then I’d support her. It sounds like it would be a great experience, and would develop her as both an artist and as a person. And if it were something that SHE really wanted to do, I’d let her do it regardless of whether it would help her or hurt her apply to “top” colleges [I’d answer @twoinanddone’s question “if you really want to do it, then do it anyway”]. There’s more to life than getting in to college, and there are tons of great colleges. [It won’t hurt her, and could probably be packaged in a positive way, but only if done naturally; but that’s a secondary consideration.] But it needs to come from her naturally, and not from a parent trying to scheme the college application process; adcoms can usually smell that a mile away. If she’s not interested in that, or if her interests change, that’s fine, too. She’s young and has time. Right now she should probably focus on her upcoming year at boarding school, and getting everything she can out of that experience. The gap year option is 2 years away, and a ton can happen in that time.

55

I think the great thing is - your daughter, by virtue of both who she is and her talent, is ALREADY going to stand out from the crowd. Yay for her! Most kids don’t have that naturally going for them.

So then to worry about these opportunities in terms of “how they look” to elite adcoms is what rubs people the wrong way. She needs to do the things that are right for her (and I couldn’t begin to tell you whether she should or shouldn’t do the atelier program) - whether or not elite adcoms are impressed is simply not the point.

And the reason you don’t have a satisfactory answer is that elite college admission is not about racking up points. Blossom is right. One adcom could look at the year-long atelier and think wow how cool and another could think big deal, rich parents paid for an experience. And here’s the thing. Those two adcons could work at the same school and it’s just random which one reads your kid’s app!

This is a girl with lots of potential and an interesting story in general. You seem really worried about elite college admissions. I surmise by your use of the word “advises” that you may not be a native English speaker and you may be from a culture where there is a specific hierarchy and if you miss the boat in the first 10 or so colleges, your future is circumscribed. It isn’t like that here.

She doesn’t need to decide whether she wants to be an art major or not. It’s ok if she just makes the best decision in the moment. Good luck.

56

@eastcoascrazy ,

I still appreciate your trying to help. Immediate answer to your questions is, that she doesn’t have to do that and that’s not decided. But if she would want it, then I have hunch that it is a viable option. I don’t know how viable it is. That’s why I am trying to collect more data.

Regarding why I am hurrying, no we are actually slowing down. A year ago, we were considering starting 4 years college this Fall at Mary Baldwin College’s PEG program or moving to upper level art courses at a local state university. The fact that she is entering high school this Fall is that we are agreeing with you. I just don’t see taking a gap year as hurrying up. It can be even considered as slowing down. Daughter is one year younger for her grade. One gap year and she will be same aged with others.

@renaissancedad

That’s exactly what I will do. She is already enthusiastic about going to a U.S. atelier for Summer sculpture workshop next Summer, that we are trying to waive her age, as well of the one in Barcelona year after that. Based on my knowledge of her, that she really loves to do sculpt all day every day with other artists, I see a big chance that she would want to take a gap year. When she will bring the discussion to me, I wants to be, as I always have been, ready with thoroughly researched facts and thoughtful opinions to aid her decision.

For the last time, we wouldn’t be doing it for the college admission, but I still want to figure out how it will effect on college admission anyway. The atelier program is well known in art world and is very rigorous. It’s for professional artist-to-be students to take instead of college. It will be way beyond some artificially package without true passion, and hopefully she will have a portfolio to back it up.

Her community college was planned since she was 9, and it took 2 years of various preparation until she actually started taking courses. And it was the best thing ever happened to her in education. Radical stuffs often takes time to figure out and prepare.

@Pizzagirl,

Thanks for pointing it out. I understand. I have been very lucky for the last 8 years that she is any homeschooling parent/teacher’s dream student.

You are right about where I came from. I still don’t think the highest ranked college is necessary for happy and successful life. A year ago we were serious considering junior transfer to a nameless local state university. But now that daughter wants to go to a good college that doesn’t guarantee but at least help employment, she might as well better off at a prestigious college. I like Ivy schools because they are not only highly ranked, but also cheaper than state university at my projected income, have lower student-to-professor rate, better resources and overall better educational environment. With enough FA, I prefer a good Ivy or LAC way over higher ranked UC campuses.

Of course it’s not required and I think it’s a crap shot no matter what. She has great University of California campuses with lower degree of holistic review as reasonably safe backups. But we always shamefully want something more for our children than what they have, don’t we? So I do at least consider prestigious college admission for everything daughter does. She will be in that pool of high gpa/test score, but is likely not make it without something that makes her stand out, having no hooks and being an Asian girl. If the gap year turns away 7 ivys and most of good LACs who were not going to notice her anyway but make one interested in her, it may be a good thing.

57

I have a very simple, possibly stupid question, but one that I think hasn’t come up yet: why not let your daughter finish her years and graduate at her excellent boarding school, and do a gap year or two then, at 17? Sounds like it would be so much easier to organize and she’d get so much more out it, and be much more helpful for her in deciding just how much or how little art she NEEDS in he life?
At the level of artistic endeavour you describe, I’d think it might turn out to be about need rather than want - she may end up saying “I can’t not-sculpt” or at least not not-sculpt enough to put her energies into excelling in a more conventional field.

58

One difference between her going to this program and other kids go g to ballet school or gymnastic academies or taking a role on Broadway in the Lion King is that she may be the only child in an adult world. Those adults arearen’t t going toadjust their world’s to hers, she’s going to be the adjusting. If they all go to a museum and then to a mkvie, it’s not going to be a kid’s mivie, or teen movie. If they go out to have a meal, it’s likely to be at a bar.

Look at the experiences of some of the Hollywood kids who were advanced. Drew Barrymore, Tatum O’Neal were both hanging around with adults and became adults with adult drug problems at a young age. They thought it was normal to work all day and party all night because that’s what their peers did.

My daughter is on the young side for her grade, often 18 months younger than the bulk of the class. Academically fine, often two steps behind socially. Currently her boyfriend is 4 years older than her, and if you think that won’t bother you when your child is 18, you are kidding yourself. Boyfriend, a really nice guy, wants to go out to bars with his friends, wants to go to Mexico on vacations, and I think will want to get married next year after he gets his MBA and she still has a year of undergrad left. A 10 year old taking a college class is not going to date a college age student. A 16 year old moves into the ‘iffy’ category. A 17 year old is going to want to be in the same social group as the college kids she’s studying with, working with.

59

i was initially fascinated by this thread, but now i’m just confused.

i originally thought this was some hugely precocious, highly talented child (and she may well be) but by some of the conflicting information posted by OP, she’s sounding more like a typical 8th grade girl who’s path and mind will continue to morph and grow just by the definition of maturing. i’m sort of reading into things that while she certainly is smart, a lot of what you are saying sort of just goes back to opportunity–i’d wager that an awful lot of kids here could have also accumulated 60 credits by this age had they been exposed to a CC…but its not a typical path taken by most American kids—i’m certainly in no way disparaging your D’s accomplishments as they most definitely ARE impressive…i’m just trying to explain that she is extraordinarily fortunate to have had the opportunities that she’s had.

i’m also somewhat confused about how, in regard to a BFA, you seem to take issue with genED req’s, yet i’m unclear what you think the BS path would be–there are even more genEd’s than for a BFA student. people take genED’s not only to meet requirements, but to be well rounded, well educated grown-ups…its a shame you seem to have some distain for their value.

and on one hand you seem to feel she needs more education and on the other you freely acknowledge she will likely need to repeat lower level courses because they have more depth than she’s experienced to date.

do i have all that right?

i suggest doing absolutely nothing. i suggest being excited about entering the 9th grade and start planning sleepovers and going to football games and heading to the mall with a gaggle of kids in your car, singing karoke like you’ve never heard before (Pro tip: you are not allowed to sing along).

let her be. she has a lifetime to do all these exotic, fancy things. if she’s as bright as you suggest she’ll have no issues getting in to fabulous schools and then having a fabulous life. IN FOUR YEARS. when she is truly ready.

60

Is it legal to simply pull a kid out of high school to do non-academic things for a year or two? If my quick internet search is correct, children all the way up to 18 are legally required to be in school in CA. I assume if she had a hs diploma that would suffice, but she doesn’t have a hs diploma.

Secondly, and I know you won’t take this well, but this reeks of pushy dad to me. Your child has asked to do a normal high school experience. It sounds like that plan is all set. Yet here you are, doing detailed research and planning a gap year or two. all completely behind her back, which will radically disrupt the normal high school experience she has asked for, and asking how this will impact her college admissions? Moreover, it clearly would make far more sense for her to take a traditional gap year, if and when she graduates from high school and still wants this foreign art experience. Then she won’t disrupt her high school program or friendships, and she will be of the proper age for the foreign program, her Spanish will be better if she’s completed her high school Spanish program, she’ll be more mature and able to handle herself in a foreign country. But then of course she couldn’t put it on her application resume. You insist this is all about her, and not about admissions, but if so, why are you bending over backwards to stuff this plan into her admissions portfolio when none of it makes sense for her?