1 in 5 parents edit their kid's college papers

Parents Forum
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<p>If the professor says ‘use no help’ then any help is cheating.</p>

<p>If you can seek outside help, which is normally allowed (as evidenced by the existence of the student writing centers), then it is not cheating to seek the best help you can.</p>

<p>You might get good or bad help from the writing center. You might have parents who won’t or are unable to help, or help and give really dumb advice. </p>

<p>The fact that some students do not get extra help doesn’t mean the others are cheating. Maybe it means that life isn’t ‘fair’ but that’s not news.</p>

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<p>Epiphany, I am 100% sure that the Honor code at my daughter’s college did not preclude students from having others proofread and critique their work. I am 100% sure that my daughter’s thesis advisors were well aware that she discussed and vetted her work with others. For one thing she put an acknowledgements page on the front of her thesis thanking all the people who had given her support and assistance. For another thing, my d. applied for a job at her college writing center at one point, and the job application asked what her writing process was, and she wrote about how she seeks the input and feedback of others at every stage of the process. (And I know that, of course, because my d. sent me her job application for feedback.). </p>

<p>And I wasn’t claiming “superiority” – I was responding specifically another post which implied that students getting parental help were taking the easy route, letting their parents do all the work. The students who are vetting their work with others before turning it are often investing extra effort, to go beyond what is expected – and they know that. They aren’t seeking help to get by, they are seeking feedback in order to make something good into something even better.</p>

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<p>Exactly. Which is why all the unwarranted psychological verdicts that have peppered this thread beg to be countered by example, as Hanna and Calmom have done.</p>

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<p>calmom, thanks for clarifying! :slight_smile: And let me also clarify by saying that I also do not make any assumptions about those who do use sources outside of class. Honor Codes differ by campus, and hopefully profs are clear about not only what they consider ethical, but again, what they wish to promote vis-a-vis the process of writing.</p>

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Try as I may ;), I can’t seem to get any purchase on this part of the discussion. I don’t think things like “editing” of graded assignments are clear…and (as the legalistic what-are-the-dang-rules? nut I am ) it bothers me. We can’t agree on this thread where the “line” is. (And college is full of these “lines”.) </p>

<p>Ignorance of the law is no excuse in my world , but at least we have some constitutional counter-balance against vague laws. I’m afraid that students may not have the same counter-balance and recourse available. It’s pretty spooky to me.</p>

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<p>A student brought her project to me last year. (I actually asked to see it, because I knew from experience with her that she had a false confidence with respect to the product.) She loves to write and has a “voice,” but lacked precision, mechanics, and usage. Because of psychological “curving” in the class, she was receiving an A at the time, when in reality her writing was B to B-. I was concerned about her skills going into high school’s junior year, and because she will apply to 4-year colleges. So I made a photocopy of one page of her paper, and used that one page as an editing model for her – indicating where she had run-on or repetitive sentences, where the structure was weak. To replace some of those sections I highlighted, I gave her examples of possible substitute phrases, words, re-organization. (“If you meant to say _________, you could have said it one of these ways…”; “this paragraph would be stronger by elaborating the details here.” ) Yet I did not ‘re-write’ any of her paper for her, including that heavily marked-up page.</p>

<p>I told her to use that page as a model of how to examine and self-edit the rest of her paper. She was immensely grateful. I do not consider that unethical. I consider that teaching. I don’t think English teachers and English professors consider that unethical, either. That is not exactly, though, how I have interpreted some of the posts on this thread, and in my ethical framework I would want to know, as a student, where the prof believes the boundaries are, not where my family or people on CC believe the boundaries are.</p>

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We are on the same page. Hallelujah! I really think that somebody is going to have a kid who crosses an un-seen line in a particular class at a particular school …and it won’t end well. At all.</p>

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<p>dbwes wrote: "And there’s the rub. It’s that sorting function that Shawbridge mentioned oh, so many pages ago. I think there are parents (maybe some posting here, maybe not) who become very invested in issues like GPA and ranking all through high school and get very steamed at those kids who are succeeding with what seems like lots of help.
To me, the sanctity of the grade is very secondary to the overall learning. "</p>

<p>No problem, then look over your kid’s paper <em>after</em> it’s graded.</p>

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<p>“in my ethical framework I would want to know, as a student, where the prof believes the boundaries are, not where my family or people on CC believe the boundaries are.”</p>

<p>I completely agree… which is why I said early on that students who get outside help should approach professors about it. It is not allowed at any of my kids’ schools and I posted several other honor codes that show it’s not allowed at certain other schools. I would not be surprised if some schools don’t address it and some schools are fine with it (maybe even encourage it-- certainly at the thesis level). But I think students should check and not assume that because the writing center is allowed, parents’ help is allowed. The honor codes I have seen that don’t allow it are at schools that have writing centers. If it’s not clearly addressed, I would check with a professor. </p>

<p>When I was in college, I handed in an English paper for a government class. I asked my professors if it was ok and they said yes. To my surprise, the honor codes at each of my kids’ schools specifically say that’s not allowed. Similarly, I once had a professor ask us to watch a bunch of episodes of the evening news and chart time spent on different segments. I asked if a classmate and I could split the episodes and share our research. She said yes. Another kid thought that was cheating but the professor told her she had okayed it. Again, what matters is what’s ok at that school and for that professor.</p>

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<p>You guys are playing a game with moving goal posts. First it’s “wrong” for kids to ask their parents to proofread or critique their work, because that means they in relationship of codependency with their parents and aren’t properly “separating”. (Never mind that their parents are sending them a monthly allowance, booking their flights for them, driving them and their luggage to and from school spring and fall, and planning on funding grad school - if a parent so much as points out a misplaced apostrophe, the family is clearly dysfunctional). If the kids need help, they can get it from their peers or their school’s writing center. </p>

<p>Then someone points out that, hey, the writing center isn’t open at 1 am… and now all of the sudden it has become “academic dishonesty”. It is perfectly acceptable to have one’s work vetted and revised with the help of the entire staff of the writing center or half the kids on the dorm floor… but god forbid anyone who shares part of a DNA profile with the kid gets a look at it.</p>

<p>The honor codes are focused on plagiarism – copying someone else’s work without attribution or having someone else do the writing for you. It’s not about spell check, or someone pointing out that the paragraph on page 12 has a run-on sentence. If someone critiques or proofreads, and the student revises … it is still the student’s own work. </p>

<p>And students are expected to use outside resources to write research papers. It is in the nature of “research”.</p>

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<p>I don’t think that 2collegewego, curmudgeon, or I are ‘playing games with moving goal posts.’ (Perhaps ‘you guys’ refers to earlier posters?) I think we --or at least the 3 of us – maybe some earlier posters, too, want the goal posts to be positioned by teachers and professors, for those assignments and their classes. I think we want that, for the sake of clarity and the sake of every student, for the definitions of ‘help,’ ‘plagiarism,’ and ‘cheating’ to come from those in the positions of authority, and again only relative to their classes, not relative to writing learned as a lifetime skill (couldn’t agree more!), not writing in a professional context (academia or business) or a personal context (creative writing, narratives), or efforts which are both personal & professional (resumes, websites).</p>

<p>My understanding of writing centers in colleges is that they tutor more than they directly edit. They show, give examples, identify errors even, suggest different organization, help those having trouble getting started, but do not directly rewrite. What several parents on this thread seem to say is that they literally rewrite whole sentences, phrases; reconstruct paragraphs, replace words with their own choices (with agreement from their S’s and D’s). In my opinion, that is doing the student’s work and is crossing the line from ‘help’ to something else, unless the teacher or prof has been explicit about not being particularly concerned with authentic authorship. I am not talking here about a parent (or friend) circling “it’s” when it should have been ‘its.’ Those are mechanics, not content, and on the 4-yr college level, most S’s and D’s of CC parents do not qualify as extremely grammar-challenged. The teacher or the prof himself or herself would much rather read mechanically correct papers, because the opposite gets in the way of the ideas themselves and the cohesiveness of the paper.</p>

<p>But what the teacher and the prof do want to see is whether the student, not the parent of that student, is learning and has learned as a result of this class, how to communicate effectively within the assignments given. While brainstorming with others often initiates and refines communication, if the product of that brainstorming is not the student’s decision, but a product based on consensus, then i.m.o. the student is not owning the learning.</p>

<p>I think it is particularly challenging for those of us who do love to write – not to mention loving being helpful to those struggling to write – to control ourselves and refrain from taking over, even a little bit. I have a very close friend who is a terrible cook and hates cooking, puts as little effort into it as possible. It’s pretty counter-intuitive to me, as she is so capable and an amazingly self-confident person in all tasks both mundane and rarefied. I asked her once about why she feels so negative and so incapable when it comes to cooking. She replied that her mother used to take over whenever the Mom was in the kitchen and my friend had reached a difficult point in the cooking. That is, btw, the opposite of what happened to me: my mother (and father) assigned me cooking and meal-planning roles for our large family, often with no direction, incidentally. I became early in life a fully independent (amateur ;)) cook; I rarely even use recipes; when I do, I feel free to alter and embellish at will, because I feel competent, fluent, and independent.</p>

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Could you point me to those posts? I didn’t see anything like that.</p>

<p>I’d note that the title of this thread is not “1 in 5 parents write their kid’s college papers”. “Edit” is not the same as “write”.</p>

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<p>Are there any circumstances under which visiting a college’s writing center is cheating or otherwise inappropriate?</p>

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<p>zoosermom-- MAYBE for a take home essay exam, but not in all cases. That is literally all I can think of.</p>

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<p>Agree with Calmom–where did anyone talk about re-writing?</p>

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<p>Replying to post 252:</p>

<p>Perhaps the thread contributors cannot agree on language then, or perhaps on the implications of what’s been written.</p>

<p>Referring back to my post that you quote, the word I used was “seem” [to write/rewrite]. In keeping with “seem,” the following posts fill that category for me:</p>

<p>7, 21, 32, 160.<br>
152 would seem to argue interchangeability of the ethics of professional and undergraduate writing, where authorship could be single or joint, and no one would know.</p>

<p>But several are ambiguous: 29, 177, 212, 223, 239. (“Being online” and engaging in written chat about written work may, yes, be just conversational in the way I and others have mentioned constructive oral, in-person criticism. But some of the online stuff implied, to me, more direct exchanges of phrases.)</p>

<p>Posts which affirm my views are 48, 51, 52, 99, 114, 134, 140, 229, and 236.</p>

<p>Keep in mind that not only are grades given for particular written undergraduate assignments, but also more colleges & U’s are now assigning senior theses and awarding prizes for these. I have not heard of such a college project where there is not an undergraduate departmental advisor assigned to assist each student in the completion of this. I am glad (for reasons I stated earlier) that my children have learned to write beautifully on their own without soliciting help on specifics, even though I was in an excellent position to provide that. And under no circumstances would I have considered it ethical to offer solicited or unsolicited advice on D1’s undergraduate thesis. That’s why she had an advisor. </p>

<p>She knows I’m a good writer and reviewer; she’ll turn to me (and has) at other times, for other writing. But not when it impacts a grade. It doesn’t mean she confuses her identity or accomplishments with a grade, or that her relationship with me is impaired. It’s partly a matter of integrity – as she and as I see it. But frankly it has also furthered excellent relationships with college profs! and with advisors! including those advising her on grad school choices now. To me, there’s a real benefit to that.</p>

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<p>I wanted to add, calmom, that in rereading all the posts, including yours about how independent your D is, (and that writing-review is an unusual opportunity for interaction) I can well relate! Nor do I begrudge anyone here whatever reasons they have for participating ‘heavily’ (‘frequently’ is perhaps a better choice?). </p>

<p>I would note a couple of things, though (in response to some other posters, mostly):</p>

<p>Yes, the learning is ‘more important’ (ultimately) than the end-point grade. But I do think being clear about grade boundaries (vs. professional collaboration, vs. just idea-sharing with parents while in school), and being clear about authorship is helpful for the student. I think, for example, of the many ‘Young Author’ kinds of contests in elementary and high school. Plenty of peer parents edited, wrote, rewrote, and/or contributed to illustrating and binding their children’s projects. (!) My children were very disillusioned by this, and I shared their disillusionment, yet refused to join the crowd. So when they did earn prizes and placements for such contests, you can imagine how much more genuine their satisfaction and self-affirmation was. Similarly, I refuse to join such efforts now, as well, in my position. If the student is awarded, I want him or her to be certain that not one word was contributed by anyone but himself. I explain to the student and parents that I will offer my impressions, and will give feedback (very general advice) on a specific section the student may be uneasy about and approach me for, but I will do nothing else. </p>

<p>This is going to be more controversial:<br>
I don’t think that the absence of teaching about writing, and of practice in writing from K-12 (don’t get yourself started about that, epiphany ;)) justifies crossing the line from making suggestions to proof-reading and more (editing). I think such a lack cries out for public advocacy. I’m pretty militant about this. The private schools my children attended focused heavily on writing, but had they not done so, or had they attended publics which gave little attention to writing, I would be leading a charge. It’s not an extra. It’s as essential as basic math. The solution is for parents and boards to require districts to commit to this, and for districts to hire teachers willing to require it in their classes. The writing of the typical 10th-grader I see is abominable; it’s an embarrassment. Ditto for those prepping for the SAT. I’m talking just middle-class students now, not severely deprived students, or even students from non-English speaking households. Some of my students tell me that they “never get assigned” writing: between 5th and 9th, a few assignments of short, short papers may have been required, and often nothing truly structured or formal. Some of these students have told me that the teachers have said to them that “I don’t have time to correct essays.” Really? That was my job when I was obtained my first set of credentials, and I would consider it still my job if I were now in a classroom setting. </p>

<p>In one local school district, art and music (naturally) have been gutted due to local & State budget cuts. They’re always considered “extras” even though connections to cognition can be demonstrated. So parent volunteers (called “docents”) have been conscripted to teach art and music. I wonder if writing will be next on the list. Considering that yes, many, many parents are very good writers, I would have no problem if any district decided to formalize parental writing help for classes of students, but frankly it’s absurd even to be talking about the “necessity” of this. Writing docents. Wow. Next we’ll have math docents, science docents, history docents. Not speakers or field trips, but free delivery of curriculum by those paying taxes to receive it, not give it.</p>

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<p>Calmom, not only am I not moving the goalpost, but what you wrote here is not necessarily true-- no matter how many times you or so many other parents try to argue it is. </p>

<p><i>"Then someone points out that, hey, the writing center isn’t open at 1 am… and now all of the sudden it has become “academic dishonesty”. It is perfectly acceptable to have one’s work vetted and revised with the help of the entire staff of the writing center or half the kids on the dorm floor… but god forbid anyone who shares part of a DNA profile with the kid gets a look at it.</i></p><i>

</i><p><i>The honor codes are focused on plagiarism – copying someone else’s work without attribution or having someone else do the writing for you. It’s not about spell check, or someone pointing out that the paragraph on page 12 has a run-on sentence. If someone critiques or proofreads, and the student revises … it is still the student’s own work." </i></p>

<p>Frankly, it doesn’t matter to me that the writing center isn’t open at 1am. If the student wanted to get his work edited, he would have had it ready on time. And I never wrote it was ok for other students to edit the work either. Unless a professor specifically arranges for peer editing, that is no more allowed than emailing it to mom. </p>

<p>If you back to my post #95, I quoted from 3 honor codes that specifically don’t allow what you said. I spent less than 5 minutes looking up random elite schools. (Honestly, I looked up 4 school honor codes and these 3 all had provisions that don’t allow it. The other one was very general and ambiguous.) None of these include my kids’ schools (all top schools), all of which also specifically forbid parent participation in the writing process. That said, I realize a lot of schools don’t forbid it-- my alma mater, a state flagship, doesn’t-- and I have said that if a student has any doubt, certainly he can ask the professor. </p>

<p><i>Here’s a quote from Middlebury’s Honor Code:</i></p><i>

<p>“National and Middlebury-based research and community feedback has identified a wide range of behaviors that clearly reflect academic dishonesty. These include but are not limited to… involving parents or friends inappropriately in the editing and proofreading process”</p>

<p>Honor Code Review Committee Process | Middlebury</p>

<p>This is from Hamilton’s Honor Code:</p>

<p>“Academic dishonesty includes but is not limited to: Cooperative or collaborative effort in coursework without the explicit permission of the instructor. Assume collaboration and/or cooperation are not permitted unless you are expressly informed that they are”</p>

<p>Hamilton College - Student Handbook - Honor Code</p>

<p>From Oberlin:
“Ask the professor for clarification if they do not understand how the Honor Code pertains to any given assignment. In the absence of explicit instructions from the professor, students should presume that all work must be their own and that they will only utilize help and resources that are routinely offered by the college to students such as reference librarians and tutors.”</p>

</i><p><i><a href=“http://new.oberlin.edu/students/poli...cies-Honor.pdf[/url]”>http://new.oberlin.edu/students/poli...cies-Honor.pdf&lt;/a&gt; (See pg 20, D3a3) </i></p>

<p>By the way, here’s another school, Wesleyan. Note that the wording of the rule seems ambiguous</p>

<p>“The attempt to give or obtain assistance in a formal academic exercise without due acknowledgement.”</p>

<p>However, the expectation is much clearer when the same page includes directions to the writing tutor to</p>

<p>“Remind students who come to you for help that they must document the fact that they spoke to you about their paper. Take the time to explain that professors will view the fact that they sought help as positive, not negative.” </p>

<p><a href=“http://www.wesleyan.edu/writing/workshop/generalinfo/academicintegrity.html[/url]”>http://www.wesleyan.edu/writing/workshop/generalinfo/academicintegrity.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>My kids are such procrastinators the amount of editing I could do was minimal. In high school I generally gave them a last proofread and told them if I thought something was confusing. I never saw any of my older son’s college papers (he’s a rising senior) and hope I don’t see my younger son’s papers.</p>

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<p>I think some of you protest too much. Frankly, it makes me suspect that you are indeed making substantive contributions to your children’s writing when you edit their papers. Why else would you be so passionate about how good and right and yes, ethical it is that you do what you do? If it were merely a matter of saying "Dear, you wrote “their” instead of “they’re” or “Your second paragraph contains a run-on,” I doubt you’d be reacting so strongly to the idea that others might disapprove of the practice.</p>