10th Grade AP Chemistry without regular Chem.?

Parents Forum
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<p>In our district, kids frequently take AP Physics without having Regents first (NY state) - not so with Chemistry. (For one thing, there are two AP Physics courses, and our district offers the 'easier' one - maybe it's Physics B?). To the NY poster - our district requires AP physics students take the Regents. Since the AP exam is in May, they have another month or so to prepare for the Regents. If they didn't require this, the strongest students would not be taking the Physics Regents, since they are the ones who go straight into AP. </p>

<p>D took Regents Chem as a sophomore, then spent the fall semester out of the district where she couldn't take a lab science. She returned to the local school in January and joined the AP chem class in progress. She's doing very well and says the AP class goes deeper into the topics and does not provide as many tables - in AP, you must memorize the formulas. All of the students in the class did very well in Regents but some are not doing so well in AP. </p>

<p>Is it possible for your d to start with the AP and switch to another chem class after the first month or so if she feels she's in over her head? Sometimes the logistics of scheduling limit the options.</p>

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<p>From what I see here, it depends on the teacher, the approach of the class, and the student. It might work, but you need to research to see how much the prior class is used as foundation for this course. Find out if the teacher is good about explaining the basics. If not, then a lot would need to be self-taught, and the textbook may not have that info in it. Have others done it at your school? What do they say? What were their results on the AP test? I don't think any of us can definitively tell you what to do. It sounds as though each person posting here had a different result based on their circumstances. Do your research.</p>

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<p>Lefthandofdog - thanks for the information - I passed it along to my D. She isn't sure which Physics AP her school offers and she doesn't know whether they will let her take the AP class without taking the regents class first, but she's going to ask.</p>

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<p>Even though you may be a good student, AP Chemistry is consistently rated as one of the HARDEST AP courses offered ANYWHERE! Most colleges use Chemistry as a weed out class. If your children are considering a career in the sciences, then I would advise that they take AP Chem/AP Physics. Coming from student who has done this, you do not want to take these courses unless you absolutely know that you will have to take them in college. Even if take the course, most colleges DO NOT accept anything lower than a 5 on the exam.</p>

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<p>DD did that with Physics (the second-year Physics course at her school was not certified as AP by collegeboard, but the content was the same as AP Physics C). She got an A, but advised her younger brother against going down this path. She was the only 'skipper' in her class, and the teacher referred frequently to the content the other students have learned in their first-year Physics class. </p>

<p>DS did that, anyway. Twice. Well, he took AP Physics through EPGY, so probably that does not count. He took AP Chemistry at his school without ever taking the first-year course, had wonderful time, enjoyed the class, got an A and a 5 on the exam. This was a different school, and there were several kids in the class who 'skipped' the regular Chemistry. </p>

<p>So, I'd say it depends on the school and on the make-up of the AP course. If the school has a tradition of 'skipping' intro classes, this is very appropriate choice for a strong science student (especially if the school only offers regular and AP courses and has no Honors option for the first-year course). If the student will be the only one at the class who did not take the intro class, it's also doable, but requires some careful planning. At the very least, try to get the textbook they use in the intro course at your school and have the student go through it over the summer.</p>

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<p>Oh, and another DS of ours took university Physics (for science majors, not 'Physics for poets') without ever taking high-school Physics. He is not an exceptional student, and (unlike his brother or sister) is more of a humanities person. </p>

<p>I almost forgot about that, and it probably has no relation to the original topic (he was not a high-school student when he took Physics), but I just wanted to add to mini's kids' experience.</p>

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<p>BlackTie : D school offers this to 10th grader as an option after Hons. Physics (85% or higher) in 9th grade. But the school has a 6 week pre-requisite in summer.
The course is tough but manageable. Depends a lot on the teacher. D was very happy with the course and more than 70% of her direct AP Chem 10th grade class scored 5.</p>

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<p>At our high school there is a science track in which the kids take an honors foundation course and then AP Chem, AP Bio, and AP Physics.</p>

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<p>Mini, could you please elaborate more about it? How did you manage to have them take those courses? Where they home schooled?</p>

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<p>Kelowna, I'm just guessing, but it could have been through the Running Start program. I know a kid who is going to be entering our state flagship as a junior straight out of high school because of the college credits amassed through the Running Start at a local CC.</p>

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<p>^^BlackTie, This opinion is a little late, but I'll weigh in with the comment that it is perfectly possible for a 10th grader to take AP Chemistry without having taken regular Chemistry or Honors Chemistry beforehand, score a high A in the class and a 5 on the AP. I've seen it done.</p>

<p>But whether it is a good idea for your daughter depends on your daughter's school's AP Chemistry course, and--possibly, depending on what the AP course is like--your daughter's summer plans.</p>

<p>At our HS, the AP Chemistry syllabus was split into two years, Honors Chemistry and AP Chemistry. Honors Chemistry covered the first 10 chapters of Zumdahl and AP Chemistry covered the rest. Personally, I think this was disadvantageous to anyone who planned to take chemistry in college and took only Honors Chemistry (but not AP). However, a few students each year (roughly 2 out of 25 or so in AP) studied the first ten chapters by themselves during the summer ahead and then plunged into AP.</p>

<p>Actually, I think it would be possible to score a 5 on the AP and have sufficient knowledge of chemistry for a first-year course at any top university, if a student had a single year's worth of a good post-Sputnik high school chemistry course, for example, Ellis R. Toon's Chemistry + a reasonably good lab, or Chem Study.</p>

<p>If your high school permits students to take AP Chemistry without regular chemistry first, then it's almost certainly workable in your school's context.</p>

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<p>S had to fight to get into AP Biology without taking an intro course. He knew that the basic bio course would be boring. He ended up with a 4 on the AP exam, I think he got a B in the course.</p>

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<p>I was thinking of doing this, but for senior year. Does taking advanced math classes help at all i.e. AP Calc.</p>

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<p>@DanityKANE: AP Calc would help you understand the chemical kinetics in AP Chem, but the AP course usually covers that topic in a way that does not require calculus–with calculus, you could derive the equations that are just presented, otherwise.</p>

<p>That raises an interesting point–at some universities, the freshman chem courses actually use calculus (honors courses at some schools, Caltech’s first-year chem, presumably also MIT’s), while AP chem does not.</p>

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<p>I took AP Chem in the 10th grade without any prior chemistry experience. I worked my butt off for the whole year but I did get an A in the course and a 4 on the exam… it was just a HUGE amount of energy and effort because without an understanding of the basic concepts there is a difficult learning curve</p>

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<p>At our high school, kids take Honors IPS, Introduction to Physical Sciences, in grade 9. I believe this is a broad course, with a lab, and covers basic material in bio, chem and a smattering of physics. If you do well, it’s on to AP Bio (10th grade), AP Chem (11th) and AP Physics (grade 12) which is what my D did and got 5’s on all three exams. Of course, many students either 1) decide not to go into the AP science track at all; or 2) drop out somewhere along the line.</p>

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<p>At my D’s high school, they won’t give a waiver to anyone to take AP Chemistry without Chemistry 1. Both AP Biology and AP Physics can be taken without regular biology and physics, but it doesn’t work that way in Chemistry. D’s friend, who is probably as bright a kid as I know and is on the most accelerated track in everything, took AP Chem last year after taking Chem 1 Honors as a freshman, and said it was difficult. AP Chemistry is probably the most difficult AP course at this high school (out of 22 AP’s offered) and not a lot of kids take it, but those who do have historically done very well on the AP test. If the school is making a waiver available, it probably means the course is do-able without regular Chem for the brightest and most motivated students. If your child is one of them and wants to do it, then I don’t see why she shouldn’t, assuming the rest of her workload allows it.</p>

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<p>This is the model that our HS has adapted, also. Bright, motivated kids have no trouble with it.</p>

<p>My S was in a transition class, that took Honors Chem and then AP Bio without having taken regular Bio first. The AP Bio teacher told me that she had been skeptical, but that the kids on that track turned out to have no problem with AP Bio at all. I don’t know other kids’ results, but S also got a 5 on the AP Bio exam, and I suspect the others had similar results.</p>

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See how this was a long time ago, I imagine your child is already out of college. lol…but i guess for anyone else reading this right now and going through the process, I think I can add a different perspective.

This question really depends on the major that she is going to pursue. You should not be signing up for any A.P. classes unless you have some sense as to how it is going to affect the requirements you need to fulfill in college.

Before you even consider taking the A.P., check to see if what you want to major in even requires college chemistry. Many majors in the humanities and even college of education, do not. If science is stressful to begin with, you might want to take a different A.P. course that you feel more comfortable in.

Now lets say, Chemistry is required…which level of chemistry is required? and how many points do I need on the A.P exam to get credit for that exact course so that you do not have to take it in college?

So, if you are going to be a humanities student, I would say go ahead and take the A.P. course. I say this because, if your interested in such a rigorous course, you probably already have the interest, intellect and problem solving capabilities to get at least a 3 on the exam. This will then take care of any chemistry requirement you might have to take care for your humanities degree. If you fail the A.P. exam with a 2, no biggy, you register and enter your first chem class in college with already a sufficient amount of background knowledge.

If however, you are trying to get college credit for the A.P. course because you are majoring in anything mathematics, science or engineering related, then I would suggest you take Chemistry Honors first. The reason being is that simply passing the Chem A.P. exam with a 3, will probably not get you credit for the chemistry college course a mathematics, or engineer major is required to take. For those courses you need a 4 and sometimes even, 5. It might even be the same Chem class that the humanities student is taking, but the fact that you are an engineer major means that you will have to demonstrate a higher level of understanding on the A.P. test in order to obtain credit for the course.

The question then becomes, how likely is it that your child is going to be able to pull a 5 out of an A.P. exam in chemistry, where they have very little background knowledge in. If this is your case, it might be better to take chemistry honors, learn the material forwards and backwards, and then take A.P. the next year as an elective. This way your GPA continues to build, and you increase the likelihood of getting a 4 or 5 on the test.

I would suggest you take the following steps:

  1. look up your major and its requirements.
  2. Look up your Universities “AP list”…this will tell you which exams cover which courses as well as what you need to

    get on those A.P. exams to obtain credit for those specific courses.
  3. Decide which High School A.P. classes to take based on criteria steps 1 and 2.
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While I agree with much of what was said above, another factor may be the approach of the high school to its chemistry program. At my daughter’s school, it is not uncommon for girls (it is an all-girls school) to skip regular chemistry and go straight to AP chemistry. They generally self-study regular chemistry over the summer and, if they pass a placement test in the fall, they are allowed to take AP chemistry. Many girls do this, as mine did, so they can free up a class spot to pursue other courses, often in the sciences. All the girls scored at least a 4 on the AP exam and most got a 5. It did not overly stress my daughter out, although she probably went in for extra help from the teacher more often than in other classes. My D is now a junior in college majoring in mechanical engineering.