<p>
[quote]
a larger school should be able to attract more applicants
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Not that I agree/disagree about any of this Penn biz, but just to point out that your statement is only true to a point. It's certainly not proportional. For (an exaggerated) example, if say, the enormous UC Berkeley doubled in freshman class size, its selectivity definitely would not stay the same.</p>
<p>No, I didn't say that there was a linear relationship; it was just a cursory example. There are only so many applicants to attract, though...so it's more like an S curve that levels off. Haha overanalyzing. It doesn't matter, we all agree, US News is bull.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I think nursing drags it down, and Wharton pulls it up.
[/quote]
No, Engineering drags it down.</p>
<p>Well, uh, departing from the current topic of choice, I was at Borders and the new rankings are out. We're talking about the 2006 edition right? Bright neon green cover. It has an article inside about whether or not Harvard is all it's cracked up to be. Those aren't my words; that's what they wrote.</p>
<p>Really? I thought engineering would be hard. Ah well, yes let's get back on topic.</p>
<p>The Penn engineering department is a basement. Or so I've heard. It's also a lot easier to enter the engineering or nursing programs.</p>
<p>I'm a freshman in Penn engineering, so I might be a bit biased, but:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Penn SEAS may have a 33% acceptance rate, but the average SAT score is 1480 (College is 17% and low 1400s), meaning that the quality of students is still very high.</p></li>
<li><p>Its a top 10 school in both bioengineering and chemical engineering</p></li>
<li><p>From what I've heard consistently, the reason Penn SEAS isnt well known is that for such a large school, its engineering is fairly small (only 400 out of 2400 students). However, its rapidly expanding its faculty, with new buildings being built/planned (Bioengineering building set to open this year).</p></li>
<li><p>The acceptance rate has been dropping over the last 10 years, and yield rate has been rising (its now 52%), balancing out Wharton's yield of 83% fairly nicely (overall Penn yield is a whooping 66%).</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Engineering may have a bit of catching up to do, but catching up it is. As for Penn as a whole, you cannot underestimate how much it has improved in the last decade. While I do think that Stanford and MIT are both still a bit better than Penn, the gap isnt large, and its closing quickly.</p>
<p>Again, Penn engineering doesn't compare to Stanford and MIT, both of which have acceptance rates and SAT ranges much higher than Penn's.</p>
<p>It's hard to find a program, other than Wharton, that's better than the comparable program at Stanford. CS we're tops, engineering, psychology, biology...the list goes on and on. </p>
<p>Penn is an awesome school, but to rank it higher than Stanford, and MIT, is ridiculous.</p>
<p>Edit: it's also difficult to compare yield. Penn's ED program artificially inflates it in comparison to EA programs. RD yield is probably a better indicator. Or, even better, the Revealed Preference Rankings, (some of the authors hail from Wharton) and statistically rank Stanford much higher than Penn</p>
<p>Definition: Top notched=top 5 in the nation all around top 5.</p>
<p>Let's consider the following 17 areas: math/physics/chemistry/biology/geology/computer science/English/politics/economics/sociology/psycology/history/bussiness/education/medicine/law/engineering</p>
<h1>1 Harvard (top notched in 11 areas)</h1>
<p>math/physics/chemistry/biology/English/politics/economics/bussiness/education/medicine/law</p>
<h1>1 Princeton (top notched in 5 areas)</h1>
<p>math/physics/English/hisotory/economics</p>
<h1>3 Yale (top notched in 4 areas)</h1>
<p>law/English/hisotory/psycology</p>
<h1>4 U Penn (top notched in 1 area)</h1>
<p>bussiness (wharton)</p>
<h1>5 Duke (?)</h1>
<p>top notched in medicine? or basketball?</p>
<h1>5 Stanford (top notched in 16 areas)</h1>
<p>math/physics/chemistry/biology/geology/computer science/English/politics/economics/sociology/psycology/history/bussiness/education/law/engineering</p>
<h1>7 Caltech (top notched in 5 areas)</h1>
<p>physics/chemistry/biology/geology/engineering</p>
<h1>7 MIT (top notched in 9 areas)</h1>
<p>math/physics/chemistry/biology/geology/computer science/economics/bussiness/engineering</p>
<h1>20 Berkeley (top notched in 12 areas)</h1>
<p>math/physics/chemistry/biology/geology/computer science/English/politics/economics/sociology/psycology/history/engineering</p>
<p>So ranking universities using by quality of all these individual programs, the result should be</p>
<h1>1 Stanford</h1>
<h1>2 Berkeley</h1>
<h1>3 Harvard</h1>
<h1>4 MIT</h1>
<h1>5 Princeton/Caltech</h1>
<h1>7 Yale</h1>
<p>I don't know where to rank Penn and Duke. I believe US NEWS ranking does not make sense.</p>
<p>Datalook</p>
<p>I'm afraid that you're comparing apples to oranges. The schools on your list don't all offer the same range of degrees and many of the categories you're including are professional programs (law, business, education, medicine), none of which exist, for example, at CalTech, MIT or Princeton. I have to say that if the energy of the Stanford supporters on these boards is any indication, there must be a tremendous amount of spirit at that school.</p>
<p>I don't think people realize that the US News data are based on statistics from 2004 - that is, the rankings are always a year behind.</p>
<p>This of course presumes that having a wonderful grad school program has any benefit on the 'college' part (obviously the point of the 'college rankings')</p>
<p>For example, it's wonderful that Harvard and Stanford's Schools of Business are top-notch, but it doesn't mean jack if you're an undergrad, as it's not your school.</p>
<p>Furthermore, who made up this list? was it you? are you qualified to do so?</p>
<p>If so, why isn't Princeton's Woodrow Wilson school making the list as a "top-notch" politics school?</p>
<p>And where is Columbia?</p>
<p>And why can't you spell 'business?' And why is someone who cannot spell business qualified to say which school is good at it?</p>
<p>Your list sucks and your attitude reminds me why I picked Penn over Stanford.</p>
<p>By the way, Duke is superior at BME if that gives it at least one point in your little ranking.</p>
<p>Anyone who states that Penn is only good for business or Duke is only good for medicine is entirely and utterly ignorant and has no business concocting any sort of ranking list.</p>
<p>considering princeton doesnt really offer half of these fields of study (which happen to be grad school and completely unrelated with undergrad).....how do these "top notch programs" mean anything?</p>
<p>i dont really understand why people disagree so much with usnews? I am sure, like most types of rankings, its subjected to some bias and a little flawed, but why do random 18 year olds think they have more knowledge about colleges and universities than adults who study them for a living? Just wondering....</p>
<p>My apologies.</p>
<p>I was a little too quick in writing that last post. Of course MIT has a business school. I don't know how I could have forgotten the Sloan School.</p>
<p>And btw Penn is "topnotched" in medicine and law(#4 and #7, respectively). It also has arguably the best communications program in the country.</p>
<p>But as other people have said, you are mixing grad with undergrad, so it doesnt even matter.</p>
<p>Yea, these are undergraduate school rankings. Therefore, first cut out every mention of medicine, business,or law. Princeton's engineering is ranked 2nd of the ivies' right under Cornell's, with Harvard's rather far behind, so if Harvard engineering is going to be rated 'top notch' you should consider having most of the ivies' engineering programs also rated 'top notch'. Princeton also has probably the best creative writing program. Did that fall under English or should it be another category? Just a few revisions to consider.</p>
<p>Princeton also has the best dance program of all the Ivies she saw...And my D felt it was better than Stanford's and Cal's. She did not look at Duke or Penn.</p>
<p>And if you think computer science is way more important than dancing in college email me in 20 years and see if you have changed your mind:).</p>
<p>I thought we agreed we weren't going to talk about Aludaughter any more!</p>
<p>Has the embargo been lifted??</p>
<p>(PS: I assume she must have <em>loved</em> the Harvard dance program, although you don't mention it.)</p>