35 ACT, 4.0 GPA, but 1900 SAT and few ECs

College Search & Selection
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<p>Hi there everyone,</p>

<p>I have learned so much by reading this forum, and am impressed by everyone's stats, especially the kids' EC activities. My son's strength is math (made an 80 on the math part of the PSAT last fall), and I suspect he will go into something math, computer science, or physical science related.</p>

<p>He took the SAT as a sophomore last spring - he was pretty disappointed with his scores:
CR 620/M 690/W 610, with a 6 on the essay.</p>

<p>He did better on the PSAT this fall - 64/76/64. (We're hoping he will do better when he retakes the SAT again, but I think his verbal scores will still be relatively weak.)</p>

<p>Then he took the ACT last month and scored a 35, even on the reading portion.</p>

<p>His GPA is 4.0uw, 5.2w, taking all honors and AP classes at a strong public high school for our area in South Carolina. He's probably ranked no. 4 in his class of 400.</p>

<p>My major concern, after reading these forums, is his EC activities. He earned his Eagle Scout rank in his sophomore year and has not continued with scouting. He did very well at several state math competitions as a freshman, but with budget cuts, our teachers have not continued participation in those activities. He's helping tutor students in math. He plays a lot of tennis year-round, USTA and was no. 3 on the high school team last year, but he would probably only make a weak Division III team if he actually decided to play (my husband and I are not encouraging him to do so).</p>

<p>The schools I've been looking at for him (he has not expressed much interest in college-hunting yet) include the following so far:</p>

<p>Clemson (safety)
Wofford (safety)
Wake Forest
Carleton (reach)
Macalester
Dickinson
Lafayette
RPI
WPI</p>

<p>I've selected these schools with the following criteria:</p>

<ul>
<li>smaller school where he would get more individual attention</li>
<li>we would really like to get him out of the southern small town atmosphere he's grown up in (we are not orginally from the south)</li>
<li>more diverse student population</li>
<li>we would really like him to study abroad</li>
<li>strong math/science/CS programs</li>
</ul>

<p>My question is this: how much of a factor would his relatively weak ECs be in admissions to the schools listed above? And any suggestions for other schools to look at?</p>

<p>On a final note, my son is biracial (white/Asian) and we would not qualify for any financial aid.</p>

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<p>That’s a top end test score. Seems like you can just send the ACT score and not worry about the test score being a problem.</p>

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<p>Do you have a price limit? If you do not expect to qualify for financial aid, you would be paying list price, which can be as high as $60,000. However, some schools have lower list prices (even for out of state students at public universities). For example (schools good in CS; some are also good in math):</p>

<p>University of Minnesota, Twin Cities
University of Minnesota, Morris
Virginia Polytechnic and State University
California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo
Stony Brook University
University of Massachusetts, Amherst</p>

<p>Note that some small schools have limited math, science, and CS departments. Compare their course offerings to that of Clemson, other big state universities, and Carleton (which is one of the stronger small schools in math and science). Dickinson appears to be relatively weak in math and science.</p>

<p>For CS, you can also check for [url=<a href=“http://www.abet.org%5DABET%5B/url”>http://www.abet.org]ABET[/url</a>] accreditation, which will indicate a minimum standard of quality, but some good CS degree programs do not have ABET accreditation, because the professional licensing that ABET accreditation is helpful for is not really an issue in CS.</p>

<p>Of course, with a 4.0 GPA and 35 ACT, he could even be in the running for the super-selectives like MIT, Stanford, etc., although even those with the grades and test scores to be in the running do not have a very high chance of admission. Some smaller highly selective schools include Harvey Mudd and Caltech. A notch below in selectivity are some other top math/science/CS schools like Berkeley, Texas, Georgia Tech, Michigan, Wisconsin, UIUC, etc… But any of these schools could be on the expensive side if you don’t get any financial aid.</p>

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<p>Don’t bother sending SAT scores. A 35 ACT, 4.0 UW GPA, and top 1% of HS class is golden. </p>

<p>These ECs don’t sound so weak to me. Eagle Scout is a significant accomplishment. The math competition is good, and he can hardly be faulted for the school’s discontinuing it. Tutoring is terrific; besides the EC/public service hours, it shows leadership and responsibility of a kind many schools really like. And varsity tennis is a big plus even if he doesn’t plan to compete for a spot on the college team. A lot will depend on essays and teacher/GC recs, but if those are strong and show a consistent, coherent picture of an academically motivated, engaged, and interesting kid, I think he’ll get into most or all of the schools you list.</p>

<p>The ECs may not be strong enough to get him into an Ivy or some of the other most-selective schools, but the ACT score, GPA, and class rank put him statistically well into the top quartile at any school in the country, and most schools would covet those stats. You’ve got a lot of good match/safety schools in his list. I’d suggest adding some reachier schools. Lot of possibilities here. Some of my favorites for a STEM-oriented kid would be Harvey Mudd, Grinnell, Haverford, and Michigan (Honors). Michigan may seem like an outlier due to its size but with his stats he’d be a lock for the Honors program (assuming he’s admitted; their admissions process is quirky and sometimes waitlists applicants who they think are only using Michigan as a safety). The Honors program would put him in a small, intimate environment within a large and diverse university, with unlimited opportunities to advance at his own pace in his chosen field(s), studying with some of the leading scholars in the country. No doubt others will have their own ideas.</p>

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<p>If Haverford is under consideration, wouldn’t its neighbor Swarthmore also be worth considering?</p>

<p>Note also that if a student intent on majoring in math attends a big state flagship university that offers honors math courses (whether or not there is a complete honors program), those honors math courses may be significantly smaller than the regular math courses.</p>

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<p>Your son has the makings of a great applicant, and do not be overly worried about his EC’s. Schools nowadays want applicants that have an area of focus that EC’s revolve, such as math! I would also recommend that he looks at Harvey Mudd, an excellent school for engineering and math, but only if he wants a liberal arts education with study in other areas. Caltech seems the best for him if he wants a small techy school. Also look at Olin School of Engineering.</p>

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<p>^^ Swarthmore offers outstanding academic opportunities. I’ve just heard too many stories about Swat students stressed out and overwhelmed by the workload expectations to recommend it. Others may have a different experience.</p>

<p>My honors classes at Michigan averaged 8-10 students, but honestly by my junior and senior years I was mostly taking graduate-level classes. Sky’s the limit; you move at your own pace.</p>

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<p>Thank you all for your replies.</p>

<p>@ucbalumnus - we don’t have a price limit, but one of the reasons I am not necessarily looking at the super-selective schools is that I am hoping that our son might receive some merit aid at a school where he would stand out. </p>

<p>@ucbalumnus and @bclintonk - Next on my list of schools to research are public universities with an honors program, so I really appreciate your suggestions.</p>

<p>@PAGRok - I think California schools are too far away for my son.</p>

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<p>^agree with everything said --just submit ACT scores only (no SAT other than subject tests --I’d recommend he take the math II SAT subject test and another strong subject). Your son is a very strong applicant and has better EC’s than you are feeling he does. Do try to squeeze in some college visits near by if you can since for some students that seems to spark their motivation to add more EC’s (at least that worked for my son after he visited Chapel Hill :)).</p>

<p>Virginia Tech is 31K OOS and probably bigger than you would like, but friendly, happy students (strong sense of community) --I second that rec. I’m having a hard time figuring out your son’s “fit” based on your list. Carleton, Macalester along with Wake Forest and Clemson are confusing me a bit. The student body is vastly different, so can you confirm whether he’s a better fit at the former two schools or the later? If the former, then Grinnell would be more likely to offer merit than Carleton and Mac (remember, ACT scores only!).</p>

<p>Last thing, have you actually done an EFC forecaster or are you just assuming that you don’t qualify for an FA? Go to FAFSA.gov site and do the forecaster just to confirm your approx. EFC.</p>

<p>Think he’d have a good chance at the USC honors college btw (more score based than EC’s). Have you looked at Furman? Another known for merit with his ACT scores :)</p>

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<p>@jkiwmom - when do you recommend he take the Math II SAT? He’s in precal right now - should he take it at the end of this year, or wait until next fall, when he has some calculus under his belt?</p>

<p>VaTech is too much like Clemson - land-grant university in a small town. Our son is eligible for South Carolina’s instate tuition scholarship ($7500 a year), so the money would nullify the benefits of going to VaTech, I think.</p>

<p>Furman is definitely a possibility academically, but not diverse enough and too close to home. I’m assuming that the USC Honors you mention is South Carolina - definitely a possibility, although the weather (too hot) is a minus for our son.</p>

<p>One of the major factors in our search so far is that we would really like our son to experience a community more diverse and maybe a little more metropolitan than what he’s grown up in.</p>

<p>We are definitely not eligible for aid, fortunately, and unfortunately :).</p>

<p>You asked about student body “fit” - I’m assuming you mean Carleton and Macalester are the more crunchy granola, liberal type; Clemson and Wake preppy and jock, white and Christian (or at least those are the sort of stereotypes I’m using - I may be wrong). I think my son would actually most likely fit the RPI/WPI stereotype - kind of nerdy, not super-social, loves videogames.</p>

<p>He’s grown up with the Clemson crowd - but I don’t think he necessarily “fits” with them (although he loves to talk football). He’s politically liberal, but not an activist.</p>

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<p>The SAT Subject Math Level 2 tests material up to trigonometry and precalculus, so it is best to take it around when that course will be completed.</p>

<p>As far as aid goes, some of the super-selectives are very generous with need-based aid, so they may give some discounts even if most other schools do not at you income level. But they are “reach for everyone”, so don’t count on them for admission.</p>

<p>Note that there are two schools commonly referred to as “USC”. You are probably familiar with the Gamecocks; the other one is the Trojans, which is a private school in Los Angeles, California.</p>

<p>If you do decide to visit the Minnesota schools, note that University of Minnesota Twin Cities, Carleton, St. Olaf, and Macalester are all in the same general area.</p>

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<p>Yes, I meant U South Carolina honors and actually…the specialized honors housing is a good “fit” for him. There are plenty of nerds there and I have a son very similar to yours that is doing well at a similar type of school --UVA. There are nitches of more nerdy (or in my son’s case, nerdy as well as artsy --“hipster”) types at these larger populations, so I hope your son will at least look at USC honors as a possibility. </p>

<p>Interestingly, my S was at a large preppy school for all of his K-12 so it was “what he was used to” although my gut made me feel he’d be happier in a smaller LAC like Oberlin or Macalester (he visited Oberlin and nixed it :(). I see exactly what you are saying in terms of how this search has progressed, and we also do not qualify for any need-based aid, so I did a lot of merit based searching. </p>

<p>I do think you are onto something though in term of smaller nerdy schools, and those that are more known for merit. He may like Colby (a highly ranked school that does offer some merit). I have no idea how well RPI and WPI are in term of merit aid --I would doubt much but can’t confirm either way. He may also like:</p>

<p>Bard:</p>

<p>[Financial</a> Aid | Bard](<a href=“http://www.bard.edu/admission/finances/scholarships.shtml]Financial”>http://www.bard.edu/admission/finances/scholarships.shtml)</p>

<p>Grinnell</p>

<p>[Scholarships</a> - Financial Aid | Grinnell College](<a href=“http://www.grinnell.edu/offices/financialaid/typesofaid/scholarships]Scholarships”>http://www.grinnell.edu/offices/financialaid/typesofaid/scholarships)</p>

<p>More mainstream student body and likely to offer him aid (offered my son a full-ride):</p>

<p>Denison U.</p>

<p>Ok, so these aren’t metropolitan…maybe Ursinus, Clark? Macalester just isn’t likely to offer you enough aid, but seems like a great fit. A larger highly ranked U known for great merit is the other USC in CA --he may still want to look at it…</p>

<p>Good luck!!</p>

<p>forgot to respond about Math II subject test --have him take a practice test from the College Board’s “blue book” specific to subject tests and see where he is by the end of the year (maybe in April) to determine where he is at end of pre-calc. He could take in June or wait and take in fall after he’s had a chance to study the CB blue book study guide. Sometimes students take the AP exams in May and then immediately take the SAT II subject test in a same subject since they are already prepped for it (i.e. US History, English Lit, bio, chem etc.). He can register for these for either May or June sittings, or prep on his own and take something different in the fall.</p>

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<p>Carleton has a fairly high geek factor (DD2’s fave when she applied) but offers only a small NMF merit award.</p>

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<p>@Erin’s Dad - I (and I have to emphasize that it was I, not my son) just fell in love with Carleton when I first started reading about the school - somehow their “vibe” just rang my bell. I like Macalester because it is similar to Carleton, but in a city. We plan to visit both over spring break. Have no idea if they will be my son’s cup of tea - MN is VERY far away. If you know more about Carleton or Mac, I would love to hear more. </p>

<p>@jkiwmom - Our close friends have a son graduating from USC Honors this spring - he is not like our son (is politically very active, philosophy major, wants to go to Berkely for law school, etc.), but he raved about his experience there, and he initially wanted to go to Columbia Univ. for undergrad. He’s actually the main reason I’m even considering USC.</p>

<p>My husband and I both went to UVa undergrad (I grew up in Maryland). In retrospect, it was not the best “fit” for me (I couldn’t get into the preppy private school feel, although I suspect it prepared me for living in the South!), but it was diverse enough that I didn’t feel totally alienated.</p>

<p>I think Grinnell may be too isolated and too liberal for my son.</p>

<p>Bard sounds intriguing, although perhaps a little small, but the scientist scholarship certainly piqued my interest.</p>

<p>I will check into Clark, Denison, and the others you mentioned. Thanks again for the suggestions, and for the advice about the Math Subject Test.</p>

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<p>If you have any questions about Grinnell, you can send them my way. I’m a freshman attending there.</p>

<p>You list Carleton as a reach, but honestly it’s not. His academic stats are basically maxed out. He stands a relatively good chance of admission anywhere (though, of course, top college admissions are hard to predict).</p>

<p>From what you’re saying, it sounds like Macalester is the best fit for him. It’s definitely not as isolated as Grinnell, and I doubt any college is as liberal as Grinnell. The only thing is that Mac, along with all the other LACs, is going to come with a hefty price tag if you don’t qualify for financial aid. Any public school, even out of state, would be much cheaper than full pay at a top LAC.</p>

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<p>One issue with Bard is that its math department is small enough that many courses are only offered once every two or three years:</p>

<p>[Mathematics</a> Program at Bard College | Courses](<a href=“http://math.bard.edu/courses/]Mathematics”>Math Courses)</p>

<p>Computer science appears to be similar at Bard.</p>

<p>In general with small schools, be sure to check the availability of courses and whether they are offered every semester, or every year at least.</p>

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<p>Yes, if you can afford Carleton, it’s probably your son’s utopia :). I have a dear friend with a nerdy daughter that loves it and interestingly she had scores and GPA like your son, and not much in the way of EC’s. They decided to apply ED bc of the lack of EC’s…and she’s there now as a first-year. Cost wasn’t an issue for them. Enjoy the visit!</p>

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<p>I suggest you also look into Rice. It’s a small university with strong CS, very diverse, residential colleges (so a very social, inclusive, family vibe) and happy students.</p>

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<p>If Rice were anywhere but Houston, I think it would be one of our top schools. Unfortunately, I know my son would absolutely hate the weather.</p>

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<p>By the way, do any of you think his low essay score will hurt his chances?</p>

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<p>Hopefully, your son completed the essay portion for the ACT. That way, he can apply almost anywhere.</p>

<p>He should have little trouble obtaining admissions to every college on your list. He’ll be competitive for merit money at Wake. Also consider Emory (A 35 would get some traction for Emory Scholars, which is very competitive). A mid-sized Uni, in a suburb of Atlanta, Emory has lotsa small classes. Even Calc 1 is capped at 30/class taught by a full Prof.</p>

<p>re: weather…don’t forget, that 6/7 months of the school year will be mild in the south.</p>