Great SAT's, Great ECs, low Gpa

Parents Forum
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<p>Son has high SAT 1460 (800V, 660m) waiting for May results but should be strong with emphasis on verbal. His extracurriculars are great. Just elected as 1 of 9 of National Cabinet members of JSA (junior statesmen of America). Putting him in leadership position of program with 17000 student members. Has other unique ECs. He has worked through high school two jobs including one as mascot for a minor league baseball team. He has had feature articles written in local papers about that job and another EC he does. He goes to a competitive well respected private high school and has a 3.4 gpa with two c's this year. The school does not rank or weight GPA. We believe the grades are caused by being overextended and maybe a little bored with the school. He's been there since pre.K. </p>

<p>The question is will all he has going for him, overcome the GPA problem? The schools we're looking at include Bates, Bucknell, Colby,Colgate, Hamilton on small side. Michigan, Wisconsin, Syracuse, Florida (in state) on large side.</p>

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<p>we as in your son or we as in you parents?</p>

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<p>I think we can give a new poster the benefit of the doubt and assume he means we as in parents and son. That's what I would've meant.</p>

<p>Anyway, S-DAd, I think he'd have a good shot at the LACs mentioned. The GPA is not that low, and that EC is truly impressive. I think he'll run into the most trouble at Michigan, where the rubrics (even after they dumped the point system) really stress GPA. I'm not sure about the other big schools.</p>

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<p>thanks. We means parents and son</p>

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<p>Being a mascot seems pretty unique! Your list looks pretty good IMHO. Apply to Michigan & Wisconsin as soon as they accept apps as they are rolling admissions and thus tighten as the year wears on.</p>

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<p>Yes, the grade average looks better in a private school than in the kind of public school I went to, and I was in "by the numbers" (back in the easy Baby Boom generation) at another Big Ten state university. Taking advantage of early applications to rolling admission schools will give a read on chances of admission, which look pretty good to me.</p>

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<p>stressingdad - welcome.</p>

<p>You have hit on exactly the right question, as I have seen weeping and gnashing of teeth when college lists are built solely on great SAT's without attention to the SAT/GPA relationship. That said, imho, your S's GPA is not "low" and the colleges on that list seem well-planned, with plenty of time to refine them. Find out as much as you can about GPA breakdowns for admitted students to those schools.</p>

<p>Your S seems to have a great "total package" to offer. Having that package come across in his application, by use of the main essay, the "most important EC and why" essay, etc. should make him an outstanding candidate.</p>

<p>Do you feel as though the Guidance resources at S's school will help in ensuring that his application really allows him to shine? If so, great; if not, you should be able to come here to cc over the coming months for lots of advice on how to make that happen.</p>

<p>I can imagine a great and entertaining essay built from the mascot experience as just one example of how his app could stand out.</p>

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<p>I agree with Jmmom. I, too, have seen much "weeping and gnashing of teeth when college lists are built solely on great SATs" </p>

<p>The MOST important thing that ALL colleges will look at FIRST is your GPA and your high school curriculum. We'd need more information about your son's curriculum to really evaluate his chances at the schools on the list - how many years of math, science, foreign language, etc. has he taken? How many AP and honors classes? Is that 3.4 GPA weighted or unweighted? Are there more than those 2 C's on the overall transcript? What subjects were those C's in? </p>

<p>I think he will be fine for Syracuse, Florida, and U of Wisconsin. But the concern I have is that all of the small private schools on the list look very, very closely at the GPA/curriculum factor. Just as importantly, the reported SAT math scores (assume he has checked whether all of these schools will be requiring the new SAT, if they do require it, he will probably need to take it to really evaluate his chances.) are NOT all exceptionally high for most of the schools on your list. </p>

<p>So, my advice would be to think a bit about whether he really wants a small private. If so, he needs to add some more solid match schools to his list. Dickinson, Franklin & Marshall, Muhlenberg, etc. would be more likely than the current small schools on his list. At schools at that level of selectivity his SAT in verbal really will be an attractive plus and his GPA will not be significantly out of range.</p>

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<p>StressingDad - </p>

<p>Your S is going to have a strong and interesting application. Schools love 800 SAT scores, and the 3.4 is stronger than it looks if there are some AP courses in there and/or your S hs has a good track record of acceptances at the target schools. Plus your S has a semester (or two, unless he already knows his current semester grades) to nudge the GPA up and show a positive trend.</p>

<p>However, though I agree with the posters that have your
your S in at Syracuse, Florida and Wisconsin, the LACs on his list are in an extremely tight range of selectivity, and Carolyn has the best possible advice for you. . .get your S to add some less selective LACs to his list, including one definite safety that he likes.</p>

<p>Compared to large universities, LACs take more time with individual apps, and they consider more factors in a more flexible manner. Assuming your S can visit schools to show interest and can present himself well in an interview, he could get accepted to all the LACs on his list. However, he could be waitlisted at all of them too. It's tough out there. Of the bunch, Colgate will be the toughest because they discourage interviews and claim not to use them in their decisions. However, they are very big on leadership ECs and national awards so your S has a leg up there.</p>

<p>Given the schools already on his list I would second Carolyn's suggestion of Dickinson, and suggest looking into Kenyon, Lafayette, Union and Rhodes for matches, and Denison and College of Wooster as safeties. Based on the school's track record at these schools, your S's guidance counselor can categorize these schools more accurately than we can. Toss the Fiske guide at your S and see if he connects with any of these suggestions.</p>

<p>Two other comments that may help lower the stress:</p>

<p>1) "respected private high schools" usually have college guidance staffs that know what they are doing (vs. publics where information quality and/or access to staff are not as dependable.) </p>

<p>2) conventional wisdom on Michigan and Wisconsin has best chances of admission if apps go in as soon as the schools will take them, or at least well in advance of deadlines. And they will give early answers to early applicants. Nothing creates good mental health for the whole family like having an early acceptance in hand.</p>

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<p>You may want to take a look at UChicago and Reed College, both are known for looking beyond the "numbers." Essays and recommendations are very important, however.</p>

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<p>From what I understand, Bucknell likes applicants with employment history quite a bit, so your son's two jobs would be considered a plus. They also like community service. The Bucknell mascot is often seen at events and prospie open house. There was much rah-rah surrounding the basketball team this past season, so there is momentum with school spirit. It's a big sports school and the mascot angle might give a non-athlete a leg to stand on, especially if your son is interested in applying his minor-league mascot experience to a part-time mascot job on campus. Look carefully at the political climate on campus. Lastly, Bucknell's engineering programs bring in a lot of high math SAT scores, so your son's high verbal score may be attractive. Hopefully he can back it up with top grades in English and writing courses.</p>

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<p>Stressingdad, (some name! relax, you’ve still got 11 months ahead) The truth is that except for the superstars automatic admits (i.e., other people’s children) most of OUR kids have a weak link somewhere in their profile. The question is how to compensate. </p>

<p>Although there’s no statistical evidence to prove this, I believe that it’s easier to counter an application weakness at an LAC than it is at a large university. The LACs look at the student holistically and evaluate scores, grades, essays, recommendations, extracurriculars, hooks and other talents as part of the total package. What THEY need to compose a well rounded class is very important factor in their decision making process and one that the applicant has very little control over.</p>

<p>My son had a fair balance of A’s and B’s with couple of C’s thrown in, but like your son he had good SAT’s and very strong ECs. (His GPA was somewhat higher and his scores were somewhat lower.) He was admitted to a very selective LAC (Williams) I think because he had the profile that fit the college’s need. (Take a look at the other thread titled “Adcom nicknames.”)</p>

<p>Is your son taking a rigorous program like AP or IB? Are his C’s in disciplines that he’s unlikely to pursue in college? For example is he a humanities guy who’s getting C’s in calculus? (I hope it’s not the opposite with that 800 verbal.) Yeses to these questions should defray some of your grade related stress.</p>

<p>On the balance side, your son appears to be a very bright kid with exceptional interests and high personal motivation. He needs to let these strengths shine through on the subjective parts of his application like his essays, supplemental material like resumes, and related recommendations. In other words he needs a marketing strategy! (Note: irony alert :) ) </p>

<p>That said, no reason he shouldn’t include a few reaches with sports focuses like Williams, Amherst, Dartmouth. He should also make sure that he has solid safeties on his list that he really wants to go to. If financial considerations can be waived, then ED can be a good option for the lopsided candidate.</p>

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<p>I just skimmed the thread, but there's a problem here. Colleges, especially LACs, look at gpa patterns. It looks like his is a downward slide. While I agree with others that your son has a good shot at the schools on his list, if his first semester senior year grades are the same or worse than this year's, the smaller schools may decline his application. </p>

<p>It's the downward slide that's the issue. He really needs to overcome that impression by getting his act in gear first semester senior year. C's junior year in core subjects can hurt a LOT--far more than the same grades as a frosh or soph.</p>

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<p>So that no one thinks jonri's remark is an isolated opinion, on re-reading OP, I see that the "C's" mentioned are current year. Hadn't thought that this might indicated a downward trend in GPA. But, if true, that is v important. </p>

<p>stressingdad had posited that overextension might be cause of the low GPA. Initially, I thought not to suggest cutting back on outside activities to focus more on grades, as I was thinking it's kind of late now at the end of jr. year. But depending on what the pattern has been, what the strenght of course load has been, this might be an approach to consider.</p>

<p>stressingdad - we would love to hear more from you re type of courses S has been taking, how his GPA has fared over the years, etc. Our collective best advice will be better with answers to these questions.</p>

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<p>Very sorry to hijack this thread.. but I am a junior in exactly the same situation as stressedson. I have around a 3.6/7 unweighted (went down in the middle of this year due to personal issues my gc will explain in his rec), which my gc seems to think will bar me from the schools I want to attend. However, I also am student rep to my district's board of ed (first junior to ever get the position), gettin the IB program started at my high school, on my district's curriculum council, working on starting a science research program at my hs, All- State/ All- Eastern singer, and harpist. I'm also doing the NJ Governor's School in International Studies this summer. My SAT's are 800w 800v 600m (retaking in october for the math). My b's are in math and science, which I have a shaky background in. I'm wondering the same thing as stresseddad: will my gpa kill me at the more selective schools? Again, sorry to hijack the thread :)</p>

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<p>ladylazarus: Would you consider starting a new thread? I would be happy to respond but you're right, this thread would start to move in a different direction, and I think there is still momentum going on the original post. You are not alone in having your overall GPA lowered by an atypical quarter.</p>

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<p>Sorry... 'twill move it:)</p>

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<p>thank you all for your comments. To answer jm mom and momrath, son is taking tough classes. He has had 4 APs history, government etc. His 2 Cs were in calculus first semester and Spanish 4 this semester. There is some hope to raise that to B but not likely. He is registered for 2 more APs next year. Hope this fills in the gap on some of your questions</p>

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<p>This wouldn't be the first time selective schools have seen an app from a smart social science/humanities kid with Cs in calculus. Impact won't be disastrous for a male not looking at science or math-related majors/careers. (See related note on Bucknell above. And BTW I very much like your S's chances there. . .one of the reasons I added Lafayette and Union to my list of less-selective suggestions)</p>

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<p>I think that the schools on the list are all possibilities for the students and they may just decide to overlook the down graade trend, especially if his mid year grades are good next year. He would probably not be a good candidate for early programs since the Mid Year report is going to be crucial in his case.</p>

<p>However, I always tell kids to pick a few schools based on your lowest, poorest area. I would not depend on those ECs or the SAT to get him into his top choices. A flood of applicants with his ECS, if the schools where he applies are not interested in those ECs his year, they aren't going to help him much. So, he should have some colleges where he would be able to get in with those grades, and where his SATs are in the high end of the schools'. The transcript is the single most important part of the app to the adcoms, so it can be an issue.</p>