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Parents Forum
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<p>
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A coworker of mine has a son doing 15 months in Iraq. When he comes back and gets out, he gets free tuition to a state school. Of course he'll have to get past, psychologically, what he has seen and been forced to do over there. Fifteen months in the "triangle of death" comes with an all expense paid trip to the VA for PTS syndrome. Estimates are that most Iraq veterans will suffer from this.

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<p>I looked around online and here is what I found on this:</p>

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The differences were greatest for post-traumatic stress disorder with about twice as many with PTSD after Iraq (12 percent) than Afghanistan (6 percent). Before deployment, the rate was 5 percent, about the same as the general U.S. population.

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<p><a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5334479/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5334479/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I am sure for a young soldier serving in "the triangle of death", like your coworker's son, the rates are much higher. I have a friend whose son is patrolling Baghdad on foot and we pray for his mental safety as well as his physical safety. </p>

<p>However, in the case of ROTC scholarships, we are talking about the "kids" becoming officers. Overall, the death/injury rates for officers are far less than those of enlisted service members. It's important to note, though, that the highest death rates (and I'd assume, injury & PTSD rates) for any rank (officer or enlisted) are for Lance Corporals in the Marines followed by 2nd Lieutenants in the Army and Lieutenants in the Marines (the latter 2 are both officer ranks).</p>

<p>Also (being strictly analytical here), if a kid is a sr. in h.s. this year, he won't graduate college until 2012. Then he'll have at least a year of training before he's deployable. So....2013....that's 6 years from now. I can't imagine that there will still be a lot of troops involved in firefights in Iraq in 6 years (let's hope not!). You obviously can't go into the military thinking that you are never going to have to serve in a war zone, but you can also look at history, the mood of the American people, etc. and kind of see where this is going.</p>

<p>I just think that irrational fears are causing a lot of people to overlook a very good option for financing their education.</p>

<p>Regarding msg. #77, padad, it's true that there are a limited number of ROTC scholarships. However, the military does not give out all the scholarships it has available each year. It's still wide open, pretty much.</p>

<p>As far as military recruiters calling....I agree...send them away. These guys are not trying to recruit prospective officers. They want you to serve first (enlisted) and go to school afterwards. The "deals" they are offering are nowhere near as sweet as ROTC scholarships.</p>

<p>For what it's worth, my new son-in-law is enlisted in the Army. I am very grateful that he serves in a Patriot missile outfit and if deployed would be stationed very far from the hot spots.</p>

82

<p>Congratulations! twinmom. Vassar is a beautiful school with a wonderful atmosphere. I love it there, the grounds, the library, the chapel, the music building, it's like a fairy tale.</p>

83

<p>As a family who never earned more than $100,000 per year, we have lived a solid middle class life but made decisions that allowed us to live comfortably and save. Yep, we bought a demo Audi once, have taken a number(4) of extended(3 wks avg) European vacations, have that plasma TV with basic CTV, and do not live in an area with a low cost of living with our property taxes being about $7.900 this year alone. The first full year after we were married in 1973 my wife and I earned a whopping $17, 589 according to SSA records.</p>

<p>But we have been able to accumulate a net worth which would allow us to pay for about 60 years of a Vassar education. About 1/3rd of that is a result of our parents estates but the remaining 2/3rds is from our savings. Even I am not sure how we accomplished this other that the fact that we have lived well within our means and have always maxed out IRA contributions which by themselves total $1,388,411 as of today which have always been invested in very typical mutual funds. And our son had a college saving account of about $76,000 when he graduated from HS.</p>

<p>I realize that we have been fortunate and have not had extraordinary events disrupt our savings during the past 34 years. But many families have fared the same yet have not accumulated enough savings to pay for their children's education. </p>

<p>Our experience is that with some fiscal discipline, paying for their children's college education is possible for many families if they have a long term savings plan. But the key is having a long term plan. We really didn't do anything too extraordinary other than to avoid the 2000 high tech bubble burst.</p>

<p>Sorry for the gory details of our financial situation but I do it not to brag but to illustrate that our savings/investment plan is one which is possible for many upper middle income families even though our starting point in 1973 was solidly middle class.</p>

<p>And yep we did have college loans of about $10,000(???) to pay off in 1972 too.</p>

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<p>Congratulations to you too, Mythmom. In our cases, when our kids' dreams came true, ours did too.</p>

85

<p>originaloog: Congratulations on your foresight and good fortune. I would say your most valuable asset was two mature, disciplined like-minded adults. Not every marriage is so blessed.</p>

<p>And then again, we do all have our "karmas" (or am I just rationalizing?)</p>

<p>Enjoy your bounty.</p>

86

<p>Thanks for the reminder about discipline, originaloog. My parents were similarly disciplined and sent 2 kids to college on their savings (granted, that was in the good old days of the 70's and 80's) and provided 3 nice weddings. Now they are enjoying a comfortable retirement and have blessed us with some generous gifts. </p>

<p>When I was growing up, I couldn't have some of the name brand clothes that my friends had, and when my parents gave me a car, it was during my jr. year of college and was a 10 yr. old Toyota. My H's parents lived in the same neighborhood with a similar income. They gave each kid a new car at h.s. graduation and they all wore nice clothes. They paid for 2 college educations (again...it was the 70's). They just lived a somewhat wealthier lifestyle than we lived. Now, H's father is 70 and can't retire. They don't have any savings to speak of (oh, but they both drive Cadillac's). So, it really is all about choices.</p>

<p>By the way, my mother assures me that once we have all these kids off the family payroll, we will discover that we are making quite a lot of money. It just doesn't seem like it right now when we are bleeding money. :-)</p>

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<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=343896&highlight=rotc%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=343896&highlight=rotc&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>this thread illustrates that a relatively low percentage of ROTC recruits are selected to become officers.
Not that I am trying to dissuade anyone who is set on it, but trying to help with accurate information</p>

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<p>Timely - Point taken but remember 6 or 7 years ago there were folks in the National Guard, many serving just to supplement their income. I suspect those folks never thought they would have to serve multiple tours in a mid-eastern combat zone as many are doing today. Two weeks a year and one weekend a month was their commitment, with the exception of civil unrest and/or natural disasters. 6 or 7 years ago when kids enlisted there was an inactive commponent attached to their 3 or four year active tour. Characteristically these folks were released after their "active" stint. That changed several years ago and suddenly folks who anticipated only having their name on a list, with a slight chance of recall, suddenly found themselves "activated" and possibly being shot at. ROTC is a good deal if you can anticipate the future. If you can't you may be placing yourself in a very precarious position.</p>

89

<p>
[quote]
this thread illustrates that a relatively low percentage of ROTC recruits are selected to become officers.

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<p>Emeraldkity, I read the thread and I see the source of confusion. You can enroll in ROTC without being on an ROTC scholarship. If you are just enrolled in ROTC, then you have to apply and be accepted for commissioning as an officer. </p>

<p>Scholarship cadets are on contract with the military. Unless they do something to disqualify themselves, ROTC scholarship cadets will all be commissioned as officers.</p>

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<p>Dude, it's COLLEGE. When I was in high school in the '70's it was a big deal to get to go to a four year college at all--if your parents could afford to help, which far fewer could, since it was the end of the baby boom and there were larger families, most supported by one wage earner, getting to go to any four year college was exciting enough</p>

<p>On average, I think expectations are just far, far higher. Not that that's a bad thing, but we need to be cognizant of the fact that we are comparing very different eras. Far fewer people went to college a generation ago, and fewer still had the expectation that it had to be a college a kid was "excited about."</p>

91

<p>
[quote]
ROTC is a good deal if you can anticipate the future. If you can't you may be placing yourself in a very precarious position.

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<p>Everyone who accepts an ROTC scholarship must do so with the understanding that they will possibly be asked to serve in combat. </p>

<p>As I said in my previous post though, an Air Force or Navy officer has a greater chance of dying here in the U.S. than while serving in Iraq. In that case, you could say that the young person is putting himself/herself in a precarious situation by staying in the U.S. rather than going to Iraq. For Army and Marine officers, their risk of dying in Iraq is 39% more than if they stayed home. That's not a lot of increased risk. If 100 young people aged 18-25 died in the U.S., then 139 would die in Iraq while serving in the Army and Marines during the same time period.</p>

<p>For comparison, a person has about a 3200% increased risk of death for every mile ridden on a motorcycle as compared to a mile ridden in a car. The death rate for motorcycles is 33.4 per 100 million miles, whereas a passenger in a car has a death rate of 1.3 per 100 million miles.</p>

<p>I am not saying that serving in the military doesn't contain risks. Of course it does. I am just giving these statistics to illustrate the point that I believe that the risks are blown vastly out of proportion for young people who would be eligible for ROTC scholarships.</p>

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<p>Personally, I think that 39% more of an increase in dying is HUGE. It is a LOT more risky to serve in Iraq than to stay home.</p>

<p>Kids just need to look carefully and realistically at those risk factors, and decide if money is worth it. Personally, I'd do community college before accepting at ROTC scholarship, in these warlike times.</p>

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<p>So you've got the increased risk of dying, increased risk of loosing a limb, becoming brain injured, massive amounts of returnee PTSD, at a time when support of returned combatants is being called into question. I don't know the numbers, but trading in some home equity to avoid these sorts of potentially far more expensive issues is something I'm quite happy to do. I'm not one to stay home avoidant of all risk, and I appreciate the educational opportunities offered to service people, as it can be a social equalizer. And I can't say more without mentioning what we are doing in Iraq...so will stop.</p>

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<p>Staying at home with 3 children for ten years and living on one income sure made it difficult to save. But that was the choice we made.</p>

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<p>I would sooner have my son enroll in community college and live at home, than let him enroll in ROTC.</p>

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<p>Free tuition for military time served is a huge benefit, especially considering some of the terrific state universities we have. I would just caution people that the military is not a "try it and see if you like deal" ... like for instance college. You can't just catch the next bus home if you decide it is not for you. And yes, those serving in the Navy and Air Force today are not at great risk, although the Air Force has increased it's security presence in Iraq owed to the shortage of security personnel in Army and Marine units serving there... so be careful. Maybe in ROTC you can bail at will but from the perspective of the enlisted types you can't. You sign a contract. Another alternative for those interested in medicine is to commit to serve, (after graduating from college) the Federal Government in a civilian capacity as a doctor or nurse. An MD friend of mine did time on an Indian reservation in the southwest. It was hard work. He was the only doctor present, but from what I gather very rewarding. As he has said he was the only thing between many of those people and God.</p>

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<p>I have to thank Nightingale for starting this thread !
Because of this thread we have sat down last night and looked over our finances once again. And voila...there is money to be saved!!! Even though our 13 year old Pontiac Transport is dying and we will need a new car within a few weeks.
Thank you!!!</p>

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<p>
[quote]
An MD friend of mine did time on an Indian reservation in the southwest. It was hard work. He was the only doctor present, but from what I gather very rewarding. As he has said he was the only thing between many of those people and God.

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My neighbour/friend also liked his assignment - rural PA. He is a general surgeon, but in the small hospital he was assigned to he could do even vascular surgery. He claims that he learned tons! But after a few years he did have to serve 4 months in Iraq...</p>

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<p>Good luck Kelowna.. I'm driving aan 11 year old SUV .. whatever it takes!</p>

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<p>I have to disagree with Mini's assertion that no aid equals >165,000 income.</p>

<p>We've never been near that since my S started at his school. Our last year's income was less than half that. Yet we paid full freight the first two years, and just got a Stafford the third year. Going into his fourth year we finally did get a grant. Previous to that, we were full payers on ~100k or less. Partly because we saved like demons.</p>

<p>Which leads me to a not yet listed category of who can afford high end schools: people who live on the cheap--really, really cheap. When we had the higher income in the past, more like what Mini mentions, we were easily able to full-pay at D's school and save enough for S's school. BAsically we paid a full tuition each year and saved another, each a third of our take-home income, leaving another third to live on. Which was not difficult. We never felt deprived. Someone wrote:</p>

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There is also a balance between saving for college and providing your kids a rich enough lifestyle to make them the sort of interesting and intellectually curious people to want a good education!

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<p>The rich enough lifestyle that made our kids "intellectually curious" cost almost nothing: books (mostly from the library), walks through the woods or swamps, cheap art supplies, school music lessons, a microscope and a telescope, pots and pans in the sink, and lots of conversations that tended to start "why does...?"</p>

<p>They never needed the "rich enough lifestyle" yet they thrived in schools which were (are) filled with the "intellectually curious."</p>