<p>I been visiting this site for a couple of weeks. It is a great resource but I cannot fathom the amount of money it cost to send a child to a private LAC. I mean anywhere from 30K to 45K a year! I make a decent salary as does my spouse but the costs seem insurmountable, especially since we have three children. My perception has been that many on the forum must be extremely wealthy. Merit scholarships are terrific but even with those most folks will pay 100K when all is said and done. We have saved 10% of our income since our first child was born. Having done so, at today's costs we can send one child to one private LAC for two years, should no merit aid or financial aid be forthcoming. Like many two income families we will probably not qualify for need based aid, at least that's what my coworkers tell me. Apparently most of the top LAC's (HYP) as well as about 25 others don't give ANY merit aid. It is equally disturbing to learn that only 10% of the students at THE top LAC (H) come from families earning 40K or less per year. Conversely over 50% of the kids at this institution are paying the full rate, with no need or merit aid given. WOW! For one child the cost of four years at this Ivy is going to top 170K .. minimum. If you're dispensing that kind of money you are either a multimillionaire or have saddled yourself with debt into your nursing home years. Or, even worse, your middle class to upper middle class child will graduate with a huge debt-load. Erstwhile this LAC (H) has enough in it's endowment to send every freshman to school for free, at least for several years, without putting a dent in its burgeoning endowment. Why are these places so stingy, especially where the poor are concerned? I mean if 40% vs. 10% of the students came from economically challenged families I could better understand thier unwillingness to disburse merit aid. As that is not the case it seems as though the Ivies remain the bastion of the rich, relying on the progeny of old money to continually fill thier coffers. Yeah middle class kids get in, but only at a rate consistent with whetting the appetite of those students and parents who aspire to the Ivies. None of my kids are of college age yet. All are athletes and honor students, but we will not be looking to the Ivies. I will be looking at the honors programs in some of this country's public institutions. It is my fondest hope, shared by these very institutions, that THESE kids, many of whom are receiving huge amounts of need and merit based aid, will eventually, (in the next couple decades) by virtue of thier accomplishments, start to erode the myth that the best and the brightest go Ivy. As I continue to save I will also be looking to private colleges and universities for whom "merit aid" is not an unpalatable phrase. Ironically the endowments of these more generous institutions, by comparison to the Ivies, are disproportionately small, yet they give none the less.</p>
<p>Harvard is not a LAC, it is a research university.</p>
<p>Also if your child can get into Harvard, you may qualify for more need-based aid than you think, although possibly not as much as you want. The richest schools, HYP, and AWS, may well be a better bargain for the "truly poor"/"truly middle class" - that is families with income $50K or less, than any of the other top 25, AND often better than merit aid or state honors program. It is the people who consider themselves to be "middle class", and who cannot afford these costs without significant, painful changes in lifestyle, but who would be considered more upper middle class by the colleges, they are the ones who consistently get shut out. If you have a combined family income of between 80 and say 150K, you will probably never be able to afford to send your kids to Harvard. There are some admirably discplined folks in that income range on this site who have lived far enough below their income for long enough to accomplish that - but they are rare.</p>
<p>And the "merit aid" schools don't GIVE, they DISCOUNT (mini, where are you?!).</p>
<p>The real crime to me is not that the "middle class" can't send their offspring to Harvard, it is that Pell Grants are so restricted compared to the 70s. My DH's family situation was such that without Pell he would have been hard put to afford the cheapest alternative. The Pell Grant has bought many whole families a different life based on 1 or 2 members - but not at Harvard or any other expensive private college.</p>
<p>public institutions have some very fine programs I agree.
There are also LACs which aren't as expensive as ivies as well as some smaller universities which have many of the benefits of smaller colleges.
Many schools meet 100% of EFC-
I suggest you try one of the financial aid calculators to get an estimate of what your costs will be.
<a href="http://www.finaid.org%5B/url%5D">www.finaid.org</a>
Need will be met with a combination of loans , grants and workstudy.
Some schools as you noted also offer merit aid.
The best shot at this is to look for schools where your student has a "hook". That is, has scores and stats above the top students at the school, plays trombone where they need one or maybe is being recruited to play lacrosse.</p>
<p>We are middle income- and found a school for our D, that meets 100% of EFC- does not offer merit aid- but as our EFC was about the same as the cost of instate public school ( which offered little aid and no merit despite being well above their other students), it was a clear decision that the private school was a better value * for her * academically.</p>
<p>Yes considering that her school is more expensive than Harvard, there are a few students who have trust funds that pay for school, she also has friends with parents who are professionals, and who are paying for tuition without aid.However we have found her school to be fairly generous, and while we still have to dig deep and even take out loans to pay EFC, her debt after 4 years will be about $10,000.</p>
<p>This is because she has worked every summer, earning about $3,000 to put toward tuition. She also volunteered at CityYear, earning an education stipend that will put almost $5,000 toward loans. Her school also makes a commitment to keep students total debt to about $15,000 so most of her aid packages have been grants.</p>
<p>Re: students who come from families who make less than the national average income, some students may be qualified to attend competitve schools, however it is more likely that they do not.
Families who are low income are more likely to be less educated, to have fewer resources, and to live in areas with poorer schools.
I think the emphasis first needs to be on improving those K-12 schools, because more low income kids need to finish high school and think about college, let alone worry about getting into ivys</p>
<p>I wouldn't exactly say that merit aid is used in a benevolent way at many schools. It's a marketing tool. They'll give $10K/yr to pull someone in who would have gone to an ivy and raise their stats thereby getting more full pay applicants the next year. </p>
<p>The fact is that the middle class and the lower end of the upper middle are just hosed. Our parents (and us) have the option of sacrificing a lot of things for years aqnd taking on considerable debt or choosing a lesser colleges after years of working towards getting into the best.</p>
<p>Hosed is right. Too much money to get financial aid, not enough money to pay for a private LAC. If your "D" or "S" isn't stellar or has a hook, ie., athlete, minority, geographical, gender, then your hard working B+ student is off to the local diploma mill with the rest of the great unwashed and its 81% acceptance rate. The only alternative is to place him or her in a private LAC with kids who scored, on average, 100 points lower on SATs and grab that merit aid. Either way he or she, despite being an above average student, is staring mediocrity right in the face. "Make the best of it".. I guess.</p>
<p>"100 points lower on SATs and grab that merit aid. Either way he or she, despite being an above average student, is staring mediocrity right in the face."</p>
<p>Since the CollegeBoard says that, essentially a 1400 SAT is a 1200 plus $100,000 in family income, depending on the mix of students, the school with the lower average SATs may have better students. But putting that aside, shouldn't you be judging colleges by what comes out rather than what goes in? That is, by the "value-added"?</p>
<p>"And the "merit aid" schools don't GIVE, they DISCOUNT (mini, where are you?!)."</p>
<p>I think you have me confused with Interesteddad. As far as I am concerned, ALL aid is merit aid. (In the case of "needy" students, the amount of aid is tied to the degree to which the college has decided it needs some economically poor students to add to its "diversity mix" to enhance the quality of the experience of all, or to advance some nebulous social goal.)</p>
<p>I hope that your $80,000 + for college is in your name.
If it is, it will be considered at a much lower rate than if it was in your childs name
Additionally, when you have more than one child in college- their EFC is halved and you may be paying the same as if you only had one student.
But another point that I want to make very clear is that a range of colleges with academic and financial good fits are available, particulary for students who are prepared for college.
Many opportunities for students to succeed whether they attend an Ivy or a lesser known school, whether or not they decide to descend into mediocrity, depends on them.
You also might want to look at some threads for schools that offer merit aid
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=143944&highlight=free+ride%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=143944&highlight=free+ride</a></p>
<p>My husband and I both attended state universities with the "great unwashed" and we've managed quite well. The fact is, a hardworking student can receive an excellent education at many less expensive colleges and still have access to "the good life". Sure there will be some kids who scored lower on the SAT than your own kids - so what. There will also be many who were better students. Do you really believe that your kid can't be challenged or receive a good education at a UCSB or a UCI, a Wisconsin or Ohio, or any decent state university? I don't understand that attitude. I really don't.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I think the emphasis first needs to be on improving those K-12 schools, because more low income kids need to finish high school and think about college, let alone worry about getting into ivys.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yes, this is where the problem lies.</p>
<p>Please don't put down state and "lower ranked" schools and kids who choose them. (BTW, I'm also in that "hosed" category). Schools with generous merit aid are a great option for those concerned about $. Just because you have top scores doesn't mean you deserve a top ranked school. Choosing merit aid can be a very smart move (graduating debt free), not settling for "mediocrity."</p>
<p>For all the talk of "diversity," I guess the appeal of top schools is who is kept out, not who is let in. Are there are certain types ("the great unwashed," those with lower SAT scores) that aren't worth mixing with?</p>
<p>Not all state universities are mediocre by any means. There are several that are considered to be public ivies. The public colleges in many states are excellent values.</p>
<p>I have to agree with ASAP. I would like an Audi S6, but I can't afford it. It's the same with schools. It turned out that my son's eventual #1 choice was the financial safety as well, but had he stuck with original original top choice with no SUBSTANTIAL money forthcoming, we would have had to face the fact that we could not have afforded it. </p>
<p>When I went off to college, my parents gave me $0 (as in ZERO). I had a little saved and had to scrounge for the remaining $500 I needed to get me into the first quarter. With some scholarships and me doing co-op jobs two quarters a year (thus stretching out my 4 years into 5), I got through. But I knew I was limited in my choices.</p>
<p>As a footnote to nothing--many public universities cost nearly the same, or more than private schools, to out of state students. See Michigan and the UCs as examples.</p>
<p>I been visiting this site for a couple of weeks.
There was someone posting with this screenname about a year ago, if you share access with your kids- you may want to get your own screenname.</p>
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<blockquote> <p>Conversely over 50% of the kids at this institution are paying the full rate, with no need or merit aid given. WOW! For one child the cost of four years at this Ivy is going to top 170K .. minimum. If you're dispensing that kind of money you are either a multimillionaire or have saddled yourself with debt into your nursing home years. Or, even worse, your middle class to upper middle class child will graduate with a huge debt-load.<<</p> </blockquote>
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<p>Not neccessarily. We are a middle-class family that earns just enough to qualify for very little or no need-based aid. We are one of the ones paying full-freight retail for our D at an Ivy. The financial picture is a challenge but not nearly so bleak as the one you paint. Neither D nor we will have any loans to pay off when she graduates.</p>
<p>We are doing this by a combination of having saved and invested for many years and also having lived a modest lifestyle. We don't scrimp for every penny, but we for the most part we don't have expensive tastes. We live in a clean and safe middle-class neighborhood but it's not considered an upscale Zipcode, and we have not traded up to fancier executive homes as many of my colleagues have. We drive 10 to 15 year old Japanese cars instead of expensive German ones or shiny new SUVs. We watch the same old 20 year old TV instead of getting a huge new plasma screen. Some of the furniture is getting threadbare, but I've put off buying new ones for now. No boat. D works at a small job at college for extra pocket money. For vacations we drive to National Parks instead of fly to Paris. And so on....</p>
<p>So by living modestly but comfortably, and enjoying the good fortune of good health and never getting laid off, we have been able to save and invest enough to support both college and retirement. D1's college money is in the bank. We are currently working on pulling together the cash for D2. Fortunately we have a few more years to go before it is her turn. I expect that our retirement income will not be as high as it could have been with cheaper colleges, but we should be reasonably okay. </p>
<p>Of course this could all fall apart tomorrow if I lost my job or some other disaster struck. But so far so good.</p>
<p>The median family income in the U.S. is roughly $53k. The middle quintile is roughly $45k-$70k. Anyone in the narrow middle class is going to be showered with aid at all kinds of schools if s/he gets in. Broadening further, the 20%-80% income range in the country is roughly $40k-$90k. Anyone in that much larger "middle class" range is going to receive very substantial needbased aid. Going further, those in the top quintile (but not top 5%) - $90k - $160k, is still going to qualify for "needbased" aid at most schools. And some students from families with incomes above that will qualify as well.</p>
<p>Schools assume that upper income families (top quintile) will pay for the bulk of their kids' education through savings. Savings can be of two types: past savings (parents' income in the past may have been lower, and savings rate lower, but the miracle of compounding can take care of some of the pain), or future savings (i.e. loans) (and since the loans are paid off in inflated dollars, and when parents may be earning more, and no longer have the expenses of little Johnnie at home, some of the sting is taken out of that as well.)</p>
<p>Because, of our own experiences, 20-30 years ago, somehow we still believe that college tuition is supposed to be paid out of current income. The colleges stopped believing that a very long time ago.</p>
<p>There are the Public Ivies that are terrific. So if your lucky enough to live in Virginia, Michigan, Wisconsin, and wherever else you're in good shape. In my particular state the acceptance rate at our university is 81%. Only 15% of those accepted were in the top 10% of thier HS class. There are about 22,000 students. In many cases you can't get the classes you need to graduate in four years, and almost every freshman class is a lecture hall with 250 or more students. Choose an out of state public and you may as well go private as far as cost is concerned. Don't get me wrong. Determined people will flourish anywhere and congrats to those posters who have. I'm just saying that for the hard working middle class kid, the above average student, who does not live in a state with a premier public institution his options may be limited. Honors programs are a great alternative, but there is a hue and cry to end honors programs in public institutions, so who knows how much longer they'll be around. I just feel for the kid who busts his or her hump, taking honors and AP classes, loading up on the EC's, researching the schools, getting accepted to a solid top 20-30 LAC, and then having to settle for the University of Everybody. I had lunch with two lawyers the other day. Both lamented the fact they couldn't get into a top tier law school because they attended, in one case a little known LAC and the other our mediocre State University. Had they been able to get into a top tier LAC that would have led to a top tier graduate school (in thier view) and theoretically a more prestigious better paying position. So here are a couple people who are bitter about the elitist education system in this country three decades after the fact. Little seems to have changed.</p>
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<blockquote> <p>I think you have me confused with Interesteddad. As far as I am concerned, ALL aid is merit aid.<<</p> </blockquote>
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<p>Actually, I was referring to your (very well taken, by the way) point that everyone gets aid because the tuition is discounted, underwritten, supported, what ever, for everyone at the elites.</p>
<p>Mini, I would never confuse you with I-Dad, except when ya'll start talking about Williams ;).</p>
<p>Oh, point taken. It's still all merit aid! (Now, if had my way, as you know, I'd raise tuition list price very significantly until those who could afford it were actually paying 'full-freight' without the discount - and many folks would be happy to pay it - thus providing more "merit" aid for those who require it. As it turns out, I think elite colleges see it the same way, which is why tuition increases will continue to well outpace inflation, as they should. There's just no reason why my measly alumni contribution should be subsidizing the millionaire's kid, especially when the millionaire would be happy to pay the real full-freight.)</p>
<p>had lunch with two lawyers the other day. Both lamented the fact they couldn't get into a top tier law school because they attended, in one case a little known LAC and the other our mediocre State University
apparently they did well enough to pass the bar- so what is it exactly that they are complaining about?</p>
<p>Nightingale,</p>
<p>Please excuse me for speaking bluntly. I think you are being taken in by the same hype that afflicts so many of the younger posters on CC: the idea that salvation and learning can only come from an Ivy. It's just not true. The Ivies are great schools, and there are many kids who are happy there and learning great things. But there are many more kids who are happy and learning at other schools. I went to an Ivy for my Ph.D., but the best school I ever attended was my undergrad insititution--a small LAC in Michigan that is very generous with scholarships. I had no help from my family, but I managed to scrape my way through with lots of grants and relatively little debt. It isn't easy but it's possible. </p>
<p>Don't assume that a good education isn't available at your state school, even if isn't Virginia or Michigan. Most state schools have honors programs, and these can be a wonderful deal both in terms of cost and quality of education. Despite the "hue and cry" that you talk about, no one is seriously putting forward a proprosal to end honors programs. They will be there for many years to come.</p>
<p>If you search and scratch, you will find private schools where students can get merit scholarships (or tuition discounts, or whatever we should call them!) anywhere from half tuition to full cost. The other day one poster put up a thread where she explained how she'd managed virtual full funding for both of her kids, one of whom had stats just a tad above average: Sats in the low 1200's and a 3.3. gpa. Anything is possible! </p>
<p>CC is a wonderful resource for your search. Both you and your child will have to be willing to put in the hours to dig up this information. Since you've got a lot of lead time before they begin applying, you can start learning about resources and schools that you'll share with them later. Just don't give up before you even begin!</p>
<p>One other side comment. I agree with coureur. Not everyone who pays full freight at a private college is rich. We are a family that has scrimped and saved from the very beginning because education means so much to us. (I lived like a church mouse for a whole decade so I could earn a doctorate in medieval history.) We've always lived more modestly than our income would lead one to suppose because we knew that was our priority. That doesn't mean everyone should have the same priorities, values, and savings plans as our family. To each, his own. But. by the same token, I would ask you to be a bit gentler with your words if we decide it's worth it to send our son to U Chicago or Brown because those particular colleges match who he is and what he wants. </p>
<p>Best of luck in your search. I truly believe if you stick around and start to do some digging you will turn up opportunities you weren't aware of before. The system isn't easy and it's a long way from perfect, but lots of families have figured out a way to get the most out of what they have.</p>