<p>“Application essays can be compared to ACT/SAT writing to check for the student’s “voice of a 17-18 year old”.”</p>
<p>I really hope you’re kidding, as the two forms of writing could not be more different. The ACT/SAT gauges your ability to very quickly BS a vague topic, while a personal statement is supposed to be a reflective and interpretive expression of yourself. The same person will have remarkably different “voices” in each piece. If you try to write your SAT/ACT essay like a personal statement, you’ll get a 0. And if, god forbid, you attempt to write your personal statement in the style of an ACT/SAT essay, you will be rejected from every school you apply to. They’re fundamentally different species of writing, and cannot be compared.</p>
<p>Im also sure that addmissions staffers can tell the difference between a 17 year old HS student and an adult. I did read today where some Harvard grads created a business selling admissions essays from ivy, MIT and stanford. I don’t know any details I read about in the cornell daily sun.</p>
<p>pwoods (#21):
I agree that the SAT/ACT writing piece is totally different than the personal narratives for the app essays. In one piece, there is a thesis with supporting arguments and the other piece is a creatively written personal narrative whose aim is to demonstrate personal qualities. Another difference is that the test writing is done quickly without a lot of planning and without a revision process, whereas a college app essay has hopefully gone through lots of planning and revisions. </p>
<p>That said, if a student has a 6 on the SAT essay and then sends in a stellar app essay, that is miles apart in basic writing skills, it may raise a flag. Because no matter the style of writing, a student can either put together good sentences or organize an essay or they can’t. There are many variations of skill of course in between, but if one piece is poorly written and another piece is very well written, one may question if they are the same person. </p>
<p>While not the same, here’s an example…I advise students with their admissions process and this involves essays. I have had students who are extremely poor writers and others who are extremely good writers. I can think of a couple of cases where a student, who was a poor writer, showed me a first draft of an essay and I gave some general feedback in terms of content (not nitty gritty editing on the first draft) and the essay sent back was of an entirely different level so that it was quite obvious to me that a parent had done a lot of it. In one case, the essay came back during the school day and from the parent (at work) and the level of writing was no comparison to the first draft.</p>
<p>We actually have no evidence that essays count for much.</p>
<p>Some adcom stated they do in an interview? Puleeeze. If you believe anything an adcom says, then you also like infomercials?</p>
<p>Mind you, this is not to say that for a few kids at a few colleges in rare cases that the essay matters. It might for those. But how do we know who?</p>
<p>WRT soozievt’s comments on essay help, you show me any other part of the application that is so amenable to outside help? You think the adcoms don’t know this? Discordance between a SAT writing score and an essay? Give the kids a break. Most people can produce a far better writing project when they have time to write, re-write, edit, etc., than they do in a pressured testing situation with a clock running. I’m afraid you’re giving much too much credit to adcom’s BS meters. </p>
<p>So I applaud all the posters that have been able to channel adcoms, to know what they’re really thinking. I can’t do so. And I know not to trust what they say.</p>
<p>newmassdad, I already agreed that there is discordance between what one can write in 20 min. on the SAT writing test than a well thought out and revised essay on an application! For sure! I was simply saying that a very poor SAT writing essay (low score) and a stellar app essay may raise a flag. All the variations in between, not so much. At a VERY basic level, to be able to organize a piece of writing and have coherent sentences should be apparent on both pieces. Typically, a student who cannot write a full sentence or has no organization whatsoever to their writing and a student who has an outstanding app essay, are typically not the same person. Otherwise, I agree that someone’s app essay is going to be better than their SAT writing sample! </p>
<p>By the way, I think the essays DO matter at very selective colleges where a majority of applicants have the requisite “stats” to be admitted and so other factors must set them apart. And I think the essays are indeed read. For example, with my youngest child, she was selected for something called Scholars at the large university she ended up attending, where they chose 15-18 applicants, and we didn’t even know this “scholars” thing existed until opening the letter informing her of her selection. The letter explains the criteria for selection and it was obvious to us that her essays, along with an annotated activity resume, (and likely the recs too), contributed to the selection, in part, because SOME of the qualities they were seeking would have only been evident from reading those pieces and NOT stats. For example, leadership was one quality. It is not as if they took the highest stats applicants off the pile to become “Scholars,” because while she had strong stats, I very much doubt that her stats were in the top 15 kids admitted.</p>
<p>Also, if essays did not matter so much, then a college might just go with the one required essay. However, there are a number of colleges that have four or more required essays and if the essays didn’t matter, they would not bother with so many prompts on the application.</p>
<p>^One other possible reason for requiring multiple essays is that doing so provides one measure of the potential interest of a student in attending the college.</p>
<p>A student who isn’t very interested won’t take the time to write several additional essays that cannot be used for other applications.</p>
<p>My son recently wrote a personal essay for his Expository Writing class. It was somewhat like a college-app essay, only longer. </p>
<p>Well, it was very well written overall, but it was definitely the work of an 18-year-old. At one point, he described how he went from infatuation to love literally overnight. Couldn’t help myself–I hooted! I kept thinking of Dion’s famous line, “Why must I be a teenager in love?” LOL! </p>
<p>I realize that kids don’t usually discuss their crushes in college-app essays, but there’s still that element of wide-eyed youthful naivete’ in <em>any</em> essay penned by a teen. Kids can’t draw on a deep reservoir of life experiences the way grownups can. There’s only so much they can say about “the one experience that had the most profound impact, blahblahblah.” About the most profound experience most teens have had was exiting the birth canal.</p>
<p>I suspect essays get read frequently, too. But that is not the same as making much difference. As I already said, for some kids some of the time at some places (and if you’re a statistician used to calculating cumulative probabilities, you’d know that these in toto mean "rarely ) they do matter. Problem is we don’t know for whom, when or where!</p>
<p>This is also true for most other things in an application. Interviews by alumni? Most evidence (see Karabel for example) shows that they’re more important for alumni involvement ( = $) than as a component of the admissions decision. Does it matter at some places some of the time? Probably yes at LAC who use their own staff to interview, but we don’t know.</p>
<p>If they are read, they are still part of what the adcom knows about the candidate, whether you believe they make a difference or not. The adcom has that information that can’t be erased.</p>
<p>You go onto to say that essays “rarely” matter. To that I would say that just as much as you say that we don’t know how much they matter, and for whom, when, or where, we don’t know that they “rarely” matter as you contend. “We don’t know” could apply just as much to the statement “they rarely matter” as to “they are considered.”</p>
<p>In any case, Dave’s link points to a survey of what factors matter to the adcoms who filled it out and since it is a conglomerate of results and not specific to certain schools, I don’t see why an adcom would fill out “essays are considered” on a survey if it were not true. Same with rigor of HS classes. The survey shows some changes in how the adcoms filled it out in previous years. </p>
<p>While we are all talking of the essay factor, I happen to like that rigor of HS curriculum is seen as important. Very often on CC, and in my own line of work, when people discuss “chances,” they tend to quote their GPA and SAT scores, but GPA cannot be looked at in a vacuum and WHAT you have taken matters. I see comparisons made very often on CC as to “I have an X GPA” vs. someone else’s Y GPA, but in order to assess a candidate’s odds, one must see their transcript (all their grades, not just the average) and the courses taken vis a vie the school’s profile outlining what courses are offered. Many seem to discuss odds of admissions when someone just gives a GPA out of context and there is so much more to it than that, as there should be.</p>
What does “considered” mean? That if you don’t have one, it works against you? Changes from last year on some items? Doesn’t mean much without more data, which we’ll never get from USNWR. None of their stuff is statistically validated, at least not with data that I’ve ever seen. </p>
<p>If, in spite of the evidence, you’re comfortable taking things adcoms say at face value, then go for it.</p>
<p>First, I did not see the actual survey questions. Those were my words as to “essays are considered.” The article actually uses the words “essays are emphasized.” So, no need to debate what “considered” means. The question was as to their weight in admissions. </p>
<p>I never said I take all things adcoms say at face value. Not at all. I was ONLY remarking about this survey in which an adcom is not identified and has to fill out the weight of different admissions factors, including the essay. If in one year, they fill it out that the essay has less weight and in subsequent years fill out that it has more weight, what is the point of them indicating that if there was no truth to it? I don’t think all adcoms are out to mislead. </p>
<p>Yes, we don’t know exactly what goes into each admissions decision and the process is not fully transparent. I don’t necessarily take what adcoms say at face value, but I don’t automatically dismiss everything they say either, particularly in an anonymous survey where they filled in the weight of various admissions factors.</p>
<p>I also think a big part of admissions at the more selective colleges, involves building a class and so this factor is beyond the control of each applicant and it is not as if the adcoms pull the top X number of applicants off the pile in terms of stats and such. Other factors go into selecting a balanced class of students and so the adcoms examine factors beyond “stats” to create a diverse student body of many types of students who bring various attributes to campus, all the while already having the “stats” in the appropriate ballpark that indicate that they will succeed in college. This is where other pieces (beyond “stats”) of the application come into play.</p>
<p>This year MIT went away from an essay and moved to 5 short answers (100 words for 2 questions and 200-250 for the other 3). Having 5 questions probably gives them a better window into the life of an applicant and also makes for easier reading.</p>
<p>I think interviews or a more personal method of assessment is much better than our current system. Of course, it will cost more money, but given the price of tuition and the impact of college, I don’t see why we invest around only few hundred dollars on applying to a college.</p>
Yield protection - limit the applications to semi-serious candidates.</p>
<p>Of course, some schools are willing to risk a cut in yield - or compensate for it with waitlists/ED - and offer essay-lite apps to push down admissions rates.</p>
<p>I think we all need to realize that beyond a certain point the system is fundamentally arbitrary and live with that.</p>
<p>Yes, we could dream of a world where interviewers would be well-trained and important members of the admission staff. It is, however, just a pipe dream. Increasing its current “use” is also a really bad idea. </p>
<p>Except for a very, very small number of schools, interviewers are volunteers who play no specific role in the selection of students; their role is one of public relations. It is also one that is rarely satisfactory for the … applicants. I have always recommended students to, if feasible, avoid going through a non-admission staff interview, and this especially after reading both the horror stories on College Confidential and the (full of pretension) accounts of interviewers. </p>
<p>Giving volunteer interviewers importance is akin to thinking that the Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders could make America’s team win more games. To understand the role of interviewers at elite colleges, one could do worse than reading the words of Dean Shaw at Stanford. When moving from Yale to Stanford, Richard Shaw observed that Stanford did not rely on a system of interviewers, and decided to implement one. However, this was not to provide assistance in the SELECTION of students, but to increase the geographical reach of the recruitment, and possibly increase the (post-admission) yield. He also insisted on an increased participation by faculty during recruiting and post-admissions events. At no time, did he express the need to obtain more “feedback” from the volunteers. </p>
<p>The current system of interviews is meant to make the volunteers feel better about themselves and make the applicants feel better about the school. It probably accomplishes the first objective well (and results in continuing $$) and fails spectacularly the second one.</p>
<p>Indeed, this has been discussed a great deal on CC in the past, Xiggi. I don’t agree with your contention that alum interviewers who have posted on CC are “full of pretension.”</p>
<p>I cannot speak to the role of alum interviewers at every college. But I can speak to the role they play at my alma mater, Tufts University, where I have conducted alumni interviews in my region for at least a dozen years. You mention at Stanford, the purpose of such interviews are simply recruitment and yield. At Tufts, that is a part, but not the only purpose of the interviews.</p>
<p>While I cannot quote long excerpts from the Handbook that Tufts Interviewers use, here are some relevant parts:</p>
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<p>While promoting the university and influencing yield plays a part in this interview process, another aspect is providing information to the admissions committee about the candidate on a personal level. In fact, the college goes into depth as to types of questions they hope will be asked and into depth into the kinds of interview reports that will be most beneficial in giving them a picture of the candidate (they have samples of effective and ineffective reports). They put a lot of time into trying to get effective reports from the interviewers and if they didn’t care about the nature of the reports on these candidates, they wouldn’t devote this effort into trying to ensure good interview reports and would just leave it to promoting the university itself. But they do value a personal glimpse at the candidate that will provide information that is not exactly what is on the application (in other words, they don’t need the interview to go over qualifications and so forth). The admissions decision surely doesn’t rest on the interview report but the report can shed light on the candidate in ways the application may not have, and/or it may simply reinforce the recs. </p>
<p>I would not dismiss the value of these interviews as you do. I think they add a dimension to the applicant’s file, and are a way of accommodating most applicants to obtain an interview when it is nearly impossible to interview all candidates on campus. Tufts says that the interview report will be read in the admissions committee’s review of the candidate and urges that reports be filed in time for that to happen in fact.</p>
) they do matter. Problem is we don’t know for whom, when or where!</p>