<p>Quote:</p>
<p>“1. Unlike in the UK, professors are not directly involved in undergraduate admissions in the US, which are “outsourced” to administrative staff and alumni who normally are not academics themselves.”</p>
<p>One of the few universities in the US where professors are involved in admissions is Cornell.</p>
<p>Xiggi, you also mention that interviews with volunteer interviewers are:
</p>
<p>I would not generalize it as such, though people’s experiences all differ, and not all kids are comfortable in interviews and not every interviewer is good at it. </p>
<p>My oldest daughter had a number of interviews with alum for elite colleges and found the experiences quite positive. She enjoyed them. I will admit that she interviews well. She is comfortable in such situations. But her experiences were beyond satisfactory. </p>
<p>I can’t speak for those whom I interview, but I feel the interviews are friendly and I have had kids spend a great deal of time with me in them and appear to enjoy it, except for those who seem very shy and reticent and just answer questions but never elaborate. Other kids are full of interesting things to relate about themselves and the talks are enjoyable and I’ve gotten to know lots about them that I can share with the university. I can’t imagine them all leaving and feeling it was not a satisfactory experience. It was a chance for them to “sell” themselves as people and not just “stats.” For those who want that opportunity, it likely is satisfactory. Some don’t enjoy ever having to do an interview. The interviews are optional.</p>
<p>Joining this discussion late but in D1’s case, I know for a fact that her essay played a big part in her admission to her top choice. Parts of her essay were actually quoted on the letter she got from her admissions officer congratulating her on her admission. I do think essays play a bigger role in admissions than alumni interviews.</p>
<p>soozievt,</p>
<p>There you go again, taking adcom speak at face value. Read “The Chosen” for a historical insight regarding how alumni interviewing came to be what it is. </p>
<p>It is doubly ironic to think interviews could count for much for anyone with experience in the working world. Think of how different a job candidate can be in an interview compared to as an employee.</p>
<p>newmassdad, I understand that alumni interviews serve many purposes. However, I can only speak for my college and they do read the interview reports. No, I never said they count for a lot. They don’t. But they give insight into the student on a personal level and if that interview report correlates with other pieces like recs, it is just another supporting piece. There may be something they find out about the candidate that they did not know. My school goes to a lot of bother to outline questions they hope interviewers will ask and include in the reports. If the information gleaned was of NO value, they would not bother with the reports and would have the interviews simply be informative for the student to learn about the college.</p>
<p>Hope this isnt going to be full of pretension, but did want to say as a Harvard alumna interviewer for many years that I agree with Xiggi that such interviews are largely a way of keeping the volunteers connected to the alma mater. I no longer interview because it was so very discouraging to meet so many incredible candidates who didnt get in. (The only one of my applicants who got in over a 12 year period was basically a BWRK with great test scores - except for one 3 on an AP - whose essay was a fairly standard account of a service trip to Africa and the impact on him of a close friends illness). Anyway, back to the subject, I do want to say that I disagree that the interviews fail spectacularly in making the applicants feel better towards the schools. Here, I agree with Soozievt that they can be enjoyable for the kids. All the students I interviewed concluded by saying how much theyd enjoyed our hour together they werent being polite, theyd been nervous/scared/worried when they came in but, had visibly relaxed and opened up as we started talking. Come on, what 17/18 year old isnt going to enjoy an hour of full-on attention from an adult who is genuinely curious about hearing of their plans/hopes/dreams/concerns/school/friends etc.? I think most individuals would relish an hour of talking about themselves to a sympathetic listener. So although I hated knowing that so few of the students would get in, I felt good knowing that theyd had a good experience which had given them a bit of confidence in themselves and at the very least, useful practice, for the next interview.</p>
<p>No matter what college admission counselors say when interviewed, colleges and universities are never going to reveal the selection methods because they don’t have to. This is unfortuantely true when the institution is 100% publically funded. I sometimes think it would be better to have minimum GPA and test scores to enter a lottery and then just take your chances.</p>
<p>IMHO, essays should count. The student is going to have to write tons of term papers. That’s a huge part of college. Shouldn’t the college have some assurance that prospective students can write correctly and coherently? If a student has writing issues, that will affect his/her ability to do college-level work…and lead, in turn, to problems and challenges for the college. (That’s why many colleges have writing labs.) Why not prevent those problems and challenges by making sure, up front, that the applicant can write?</p>
<p>I agree with LadyD, except that these essays are often a collaborative job, and not that indicative of what the student really can do. Nor does the SAT give much indication. I think the best the school can do is accept kids with a track record of doing well in school, and then teach them to write the first term. </p>
<p>I know this rather well off and very ambitions family. Eldest son is smart and a hard worker - thought not as brilliant as his parents think he is. He has had a lifetime of expensive private schools and multiple tutors. Last year he applied early (as in he is not a senior, not ED/EA) to his dream school. Dream School is a top 10 school, by anyone’s standard. I have actually sat through one of their info sessions with one of my own kids, and listened to the adcom say “we can tell if you do not write your own essay…” I always want to ask how do you know that?? Anyway, I said to a mutual friend “I wonder if the kid is writing his own essay or getting help?” Mutual friend said “oh, he is not writing his essay”. He spent time with a paid counselor who asked him lots of questions and then wrote the essays. Family thinks this is ok, because it was clearly his thoughts and opinions.</p>
<p>I was really wondering if Dream School would know, or not. I guess they did not, because kid was accepted.</p>
<p>All six of my daughters interviews have been with staff or current students, BTW. She is applying small LACs. Two of these interviews were for out of town schools, but the adcoms came to town and did interviews.</p>
<p>anotherparent, I don’t know how you can really know that the paid counselor actually wrote this applicant’s essays for him. You don’t have direct contact with the parents, student or counselor. Through a friend, you heard this to be so. </p>
<p>I’m a paid college counselor myself and would never write an essay for a student and most paid college counselors I know would not either. Many students have guidance with regard to their essays, either paid guidance or unpaid. Many students have parents who discuss the topics, revisions to content or grammatical editing. I have many students who go to schools where IN school they write college essays and get lots of help and revisions before they even show it to me (my own kids’ high school did not work on college essays, but my clients, particularly who attend private schools, work on these lots at school). I do help students in brainstorming their essays, and give feedback on content and structure and editing revision suggestions of a technical nature. The essay is their writing. Many kids have someone who guides them or gives them suggestions for revisions, even their own teachers at school, for the application essays. Most counselors do not craft/write the essays. </p>
<p>I am not convinced that the counselor wrote that kid’s essay but simply that you know that this family used a paid college counselor to advise them on the applications.</p>
<p>As far as interviews for LACs, it is easier for them to conduct interviews with admissions personnel than a larger university due to sheer numbers. A larger university may use volunteer interviewers, in PART, as an alternative to NO interview as they cannot accommodate the number of applicants in interviews with admissions staff.</p>
<p>@sooviet - trust me, it is true. I know the two women involved - and have for years. I know that the first mother would truly believe there is nothing wrong with what she did, and also know she would tell the 2nd mother (who is not very discreet, but would not make it up). The very reason I mentioned it to the 2nd mother, is because I would have actually been surprised if, for once, they let this kid just work on his own. </p>
<p>I agree that most paid college counselors would not write the essay, but you cannot say it never happens, and you know that. Just like Dream School cannot say that the know when an applicant does not write their own essays. I also think some people who are supposed to edit may over step the bounds. That is probably even more common, and just about as bad. But, in this case, the kid’s essay was not written by him. </p>
<p>Picture the most overcontrolling parents you have ever met, and I am sure in your line of work you have met some. Then add to it. If I gave concrete examples, this mother could be identified. </p>
<p>Still, I bet it is even more common: parents, friends, teachers, paid writers, etc, will write essays or edit them beyond recognition. Some, maybe even many, will be noticed. But there is no way to say how many. As long as anything is a big stake in the college admission process, people will try and game it if they can. There is a reason CB wants to see IDs when someone goes into take the SAT.</p>
<p>I’m sure people cheat and game the system! I just don’t think a lot of college counselors write the entire essay. </p>
<p>Yes, I see some of the gaming in my own line of work. A couple of examples…
Some years back, I had a student with failing grades who was in an alternative high school program taking the most minimal courses to get a diploma. The parent had most of the contact with me in lieu of the student, no matter how hard I tried to insist that the student needed to respond to my emails to the student. When I would send revision feedback on the essay in the middle of the work/school day, the parent would send back a new draft when the kid had to be in school! It was so obvious the parent was writing the essays and I was inadvertently “tutoring” the parent on HIS writing, not his child’s! </p>
<p>I work with students on annotated activity resumes. Before we ever get to this step, I already have a run down of their activities from a questionnaire they fill out when we start working together. I have on several occasions, found things on the activity resume drafts for the applications that either were not on the initial list they shared with me, or just presented radically differently in terms of years or hours spent and achievements and what not. I ALWAYS question these discrepancies that raise flags and have been able to get these kids to change things that are not accurate or truthful. I also question amounts of time a few kids have given to an activity when I know it is impossible and doesn’t add up. </p>
<p>I had a kid one year who did “community service” with his religious youth group. When it came time to do the resume, the hours he wrote that he spent on this were not realistic given what else he did, and when I asked him to elaborate on what he called “mission trips” on his resume, he wrote that he had gone to help with Hurricane Katrina. I was surprised after all the months we had worked together and the detailed quesitonnaire he had filled out for me and even his first draft of this resume document never mentioned something as significant as this until I asked him to be specific a to where he went on these “mission trips.” So, when I acted surprised that he never had mentioned the Katrina trip in any other papers on his activities and not even on the first draft of this resume for this annotated activity, he said, he “forgot.” As I copy all correspondence with students onto their parents, the father wrote me back and admitted that his kid made it up. Duh, it was so obvious. But when flags are raised for me on any documents, I always question them and I mention to the applicant that if it raises a flag for me, it might for an adcom, which would be a negative, and they always change it. I just am not willing to be a part of any misrepresentation. I’m very against it. Do kids/parents do it? I’m sure they do. But I will not be a part of that kind of gaming.</p>
<p>@anotherparent – I totally trust you! And yes, I can well believe it.</p>
<p>All I can say is – oy!!</p>
<p>My daughter received invitations to participate in LAC scholarship contests, in part based on her essays. The contests were extended interviews. Overall I think the selection process was reasonable, since it easily identified essay cheaters at the next level.</p>
<p>Gaming one aspect of college admissions is easy; gaming them all is hard.</p>
<p>“I think the best the school can do is accept kids with a track record of doing well in school”</p>
<p>I am not so sure that is even an indicator of who will do well in college academics. College courses are different not only in content but in educational approach, structure of the day, etc than a high school course. Of course fields of study are different, presence of parents is not there, degree of student choice of what they will take is different, etc. </p>
<p>And of course many colleges are interested in A. What will the student add to the student body generally and B. How will they succeed after college. </p>
<p>Leaving aside all the other factors that go into GPA, from high school difficultly levels, luck of what teachers one gets, ease or difficulty of getting accommodations for LD kids, not to mention use of tutors, etc. </p>
<p>I am not saying GPA should not be a factor. But it certainly makes sense to me that colleges would like to use methods other than GPA. Whether “harder” factors like SAT/ACT, or softer ones like essays and interviews. BTW if a college is concerned that an essay is being ghost written, there would seem to be lots of possible synergy between the essay and the interview. One could ask follow up questions about the essay, I suppose. </p>
<p>I will say my DD’s essay was her own (she hardly even let us proof it). I certainly hope that came through, as it was a great essay.</p>
<p>“(she hardly even let us proof it)”</p>
<p>LOL, sounds like our son. The older he gets, the more he wants us to mind our own business. Which is understandable but sometimes makes logistics a bit difficult.</p>
<p>“because students are sending out more applications while tight budgets prevent colleges from hiring additional staff to manage the deluge, colleges say”</p>
<p>My $60 application fee along with my $20 to send ACT and SATII test scores doesn’t cover the tight budget? Really? Come on!</p>
<p>Probably mentioned earlier in this thread but, I thought most larger schools (>10K undergrads) did not actually read all applicant’s essays but rather use them as a final differentiator to decide between two applicants that are quantitatively the same. After 20-30 essays I would assume they all become white noise - even the ones that start with the story about how incarceration changed a person’s life.</p>
<p>One area of focus for the coming year is emphasis on “academic rigor”.</p>
<p>This is an area of increasing frustration for students I know. Should every student take AP Calculus, when they would rather take AP Statistics? For many majors, they will need a stats class in college and won’t need a Calc class. </p>
<p>Should you take an AP Bio class when you are interested primarily in Marine Biology, but the Marine Bio doesn’t have an AP in front of it? </p>
<p>For students taking a full load and being told they have to take more and increasingly more challenging courses, because it is not at the highest rigor is frustrating. For students, who see these classes as a means to getting into a college, they do it. Some do it for the intellectual challenge and to help game their apps so they look like better students. </p>
<p>A college can theoretically choose a student who has taken all AP classes, but not gotten a score of 3, 4 or 5…but that boost helps the applicant stand out.</p>
<p>The current modus operandi at most of the top colleges keeps encouraging more APs and tougher classes. Understandably, so. They want top students. </p>
<p>But does it matter if a student is heading for the humanities and hasn’t completed Calc? Or an Engineering student that has opted out of AP Language? </p>
<p>It’s definitely not a one size all proposition in admissions, and students are becoming increasingly more confused with the process.</p>
<p>You can have a student taking 4 years of Foreign Language, 4 years of science, 4 years of English, 4 years of math, but depending upon the choices of courses, the student can look completely different on paper.</p>