A different reason for lack of African-American academic success? (long)

College Confidential Community
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<p>There are exceptions to every situation. </p>

<p>But you can generalize. Thats what statistics do. You can look at a bell curve of performance. </p>

<p>What is the average, and what are on the tails of the curve. </p>

<p>The research done by Ogbu is seminal. </p>

<p>He talked to black students and “measured” performance on many levels. </p>

<p>In previous work, Ogbu measured the peformance of Voluntary Minorities [for instance, black immigrants from Africa or the Caribbean] and Involuntary Minorities [for instance, native born African Americans].</p>

<p>He found wide disparities in performance, with Voluntary Minorites having much better academic performance. </p>

<p>Read about Ogbu research. </p>

<p>He is a black immigrant from Nigeria. </p>

<p>He did research on black academic performance, getting facts, before most other researchers. </p>

<p>Its sad that he died a few years ago.</p>

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<p>Ogbu raises a great point- the culture of African-Americans generally discouraging academic achievement needs to change. If it doesn’t, they may find it quite difficult to continue making progress in other areas of life, and I’d hate to see that.</p>

<p>I’m just a bit troubled by the opportunity this presents people to take Ogbu’s findings out of context. It would be very easy for people to twist this and say “Oh, blacks just need to work harder and start caring about school, then it’ll be all right,” on the basis of this study and neglect other factors that contribute to lower achievement by all African-Americans, not just the upper-middle-class ones featured in this study.</p>

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<p>"Another thing that would help is ending affirmative action based on race.</p>

<p>Currently middle class African Americans know if they get “decent” grades – but lower than whites or asians - they can still go to a great school because of affirmative action.</p>

<p>Why study harder?"</p>

<p>Hahaha you’ve got to be kidding me. Yeah, an african american who wants to get into a good school says to themselves “well, I qualify for affirmative action, so I can let my GPA slip…wait, let me call admissions and ask exactly how many points lower I can go while still being gauranteed admission.”</p>

<p>Yeah, that’s exactly how it works, NOT!</p>

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<p>^^ At least somebody here gets it.</p>

<p>Yes, Affirmative Action may let someone in who doesn’t have the “required” stats, but that person still must do all the same work and meet the same expectations as anyone else in the school.</p>

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<p>I agree with affirmative action being based on income instead of race. IMO, basing affirmative action on race, instead of income, is basically racism, and doesn’t really do what affirmative action was supposed to do, since the poor minorities, IMO, tend to be at a more disadvantage than wealthy minorities who had a chance for better schooling. But I have heard that many schools take into account SES instead of race, which is a good thing, and may make my recent statements incorrect.</p>

<p>As for the research about African-Americans not being pushed to work hard, I am not sure how true that is since I don’t think I’ll be considered middle-upper class. However, from what I’ve seen whether or not a parent pushes their child to work hard, depends on the parent and whether they’ve went to college or not. Parents who went to college are more likely not to care too much about whether they child goes to college or not, as long as they at least get a high school diploma. However, there are a few exceptions to this, such as my mom, who didn’t go to college because her parents couldn’t afford it, but push both me and my brother to do well in school so that we can have a chance and receiving the college education she never had.</p>

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<p>When discussing AA, its a question of fairness.</p>

<p>Why should a rich African American, say Obama’s children, be given a boost when competing for spot a Harvard, over a poor white or Asian student. </p>

<p>Say the white or Asian students came from a one parent family, where they barely had enough food. </p>

<p>The rich black student had tutors and all manor of advantages. </p>

<p>Why should that black student have an advantage because of skin color?</p>

<p>AA should be based on income, not race. </p>

<p>The rich compete against the rich and the poor compete against the poor. </p>

<p>Its only fair.</p>

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<p>I agree about affirmative action being based on income, however it isn’t based on the color of the skin as you stated, but instead based on race and minorities. So just because an Hispanic, Native American, or Asian kid is the same color as a Caucasian kid, doesn’t mean that affirmative action doesn’t apply to them.</p>

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<p>I think the problem is in part due to the fact that performance may be equated with selling out but I think the bigger issue is that of low expectations. I believe people will rise (or fall, as the case may be) to the general level of expectations others set for them, and let’s be honest, for black students that level is not very high. As a black student myself I spent all of elementary and middle school striving to even get in upper level courses just because I was constantly told that I shouldn’t take on that much, or that such and such track was only for kids who were really “serious” about the subject. Of course I can’t say with any certainty that this was because of my race, but I do somehow feel it was for whatever my intuition is worth. I don’t think there is an easy answer to the subject of affirmative action, but I think basing it on income makes is much closer to where we need to be.</p>

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<p>I feel like this is one of those studies that everyone pretty much already knew was true, but nobody’s quite willing to admit it. It’s a real shame that those in a position to improve their people’s situation just aren’t doing it.</p>

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<p>^People aren’t only unwilling to admit it; the majority of people in this country are socially PROHIBITED from even suggesting it. Examine one of the Comedy Commandments:</p>

<p>“Thou shalt NEVER, EVER do jokes about African Americans if you’re white.”</p>

<p>Now replace “do jokes” with “suggest that the problems of African Americans are perhaps caused by anything other than the evil white majority setting out to repress them” and you have one of America’s great Cultural Commandments.</p>

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<p>Working hard in school and getting good grades is social suicide in many groups, not just among African-Americans. I grew up in a small town where nearly all the adults worked at either the mill or the slaughterhouse. The community was over 99% white. </p>

<p>My friends teased me all the time about getting good grades. They didn’t ostracize me, but it was obvious that weren’t impressed. (Once they even set fire to my report card to show me what they thought of it.) </p>

<p>Their parents certainly didn’t push them to do well in school. In fact, I think they used stories of unfair teachers and disciplinary actions as a way of bonding with their kids.</p>

<p>The phenomenon is very real, I’m only surprised that the researchers found it among students whose parents are professionals.</p>

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<p>It’s because they spend too much time on basketball.</p>

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<p>“It’s because they spend too much time on basketball.”</p>

<p>I guess sexism isn’t the only thing running rampant here…</p>

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<p>Is there any evidence that this actually happens? Obama, by the way, has stated that he believes his daughters should be regarded as privileged.</p>

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<p>I live about 15 minutes from shaker. While I do partially agree with his theory, it’s kind of important to know a little bit about shaker before you judge this theory completely. </p>

<p>Shaker is right next to a pretty bad part of Cleveland. When you drive through Shaker you can actually see it change from the “bad” part of Shaker to the affluent part of Shaker. I don’t have hardcore statistics, but I’d be willing to bet that many of the African American families live in this section of the city. Again, I’m not saying that this theory isn’t true, but rather that perhaps shaker wasn’t the best place to test this theory.</p>

<p>[Shaker</a> Heights - Shaker Heights - Income](<a href=“http://www.epodunk.com/cgi-bin/incomeOverview.php?locIndex=17444]Shaker”>http://www.epodunk.com/cgi-bin/incomeOverview.php?locIndex=17444)</p>

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<p>Yes, there is evidence that “all” black students are given an advantage by Affirmative Action.</p>

<p>If students say they are African American, they are automatically given a boost by admissions officers who want to “diversify” their schools. </p>

<p>By the way I didn’t mean to pick on Obama’s children, I was just using him as an example. </p>

<p>And Obama has said his children shouldn’t get a boost in college admissions.</p>

<p>But whether he wants them to get a boost or not, they will if they say they are African American on their application.</p>

<p>Schools want diversity!</p>

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<p>The Obama kids seem to have more “hooks” that most students. One of those books on colleges (The Gatekeepers?) has a chapter on how the children of senators and other high-ranking politicians are admitted to Ivy League colleges despite not so great grades and test scores. The political “hook” seems rather disturbing since schools get federal money. But I don’t have any evidence on whether politicians with children at a particular college then have approved federal funds that benefit those colleges. </p>

<p>runforfun529: Thanks for sharing that information. The study seemed interesting to me mainly because the article seemed to imply that the income and educational levels of the parents and students being studied were all equal. I looked at the link you provided and there does seem to be a big disparity in income between the different ethnic groups. </p>

<p>It sounds as though no one involved in the school used the study results to try to improve the situation. That is too bad. We don’t have a very big African-American population where I live but there are a large number of students who fail 9th grade and generally are not motivated to do well in school or even stay in high school. It would have been helpful to see some ideas on how to successfully address the issues raised in the study.</p>

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<p>if you read Ogbu’s book, he provides all the statistics you would want. </p>

<p>He did look at “middle and upper middle class”… African American students in Shaker Heights and compared those students to similar white students. </p>

<p>Thats what was interesting about the study. </p>

<p>He focused on understanding why that group was underperforming.</p>

<p>The “traditional” view of Black student under performance rested on two issues:</p>

<p>1) IQ
2) socioeconomic disadvantages.</p>

<p>Ogbu tested the IQ’s of the black students in the and found their IQ’s were comparable to the white students. </p>

<p>The study then went on to identify the reasons the students gave for their lack of desire to do better. </p>

<p>Ogbu, a Nigerian scholar, had done prevous research look at academic performance voluntary and involuntary minorities.</p>

<p>Voluntary minorities is a euphanisism for immigrants including black immigrants from Africa and the Caribbean. Involuntary minorities include “native” African Americans. </p>

<p>Ogbu found the black immigrants performed at a level comparable to other immigrants and whites.</p>

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<p>I didn’t do a good job of explaining above ^^^</p>

<p>He did look at “middle and upper middle class”… African American students in Shaker Heights and compared those students to similar white students. </p>

<p>Thats what was interesting about the study. </p>

<p>He focused on understanding why that group was underperforming.</p>

<p>The “traditional” view of Black student under performance rested on two issues:</p>

<p>1) IQ
2) socioeconomic disadvantages.</p>

<p>Ogbu tested the IQ’s of the black students and found their IQ’s were comparable to the white students. </p>

<p>Thats why the focus was why students who didn’t have economic disadvantages – they were middle and upper middle class – was the focus. </p>

<p>The primary reason why the black students of middle class backgrounds didn’t do as well as expected even though they came from middle class backgrounds: they did try as hard !!</p>

<p>Ogbu did alot of interviewing of these students to better understand why they didn’t try as hard. See the book review I’ve posted above, or read Ogbu’s book for more detail. </p>

<p>Ogbu, a Nigerian scholar, had done prevous research looking at academic performance voluntary and involuntary minorities.</p>

<p>Voluntary minorities is a euphanisism for immigrants including black immigrants from Africa and the Caribbean. Involuntary minorities include “native” African Americans. </p>

<p>Ogbu found the black immigrants performed at a level comparable to other immigrants and whites.</p>

<p>The issue seems to be a pathology in the African American culture.</p>

<p>Ogbu, a Nigerian scholar, was a pioneer in researching the under performance of African American students. </p>

<p>He passed away a few years ago and very few other Scholars have taken up his mantle. </p>

<p>It is desperately needed work to better understand how to improve our schools and academic performane. </p>

<p>Read about Ogu’s work and help continue it, if you can!</p>

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<p>Can you prove this?</p>