<p>You made my point “SWHarborfan”…That first incidence is just “past” and still some posters concluded that the OP" destroyed the girl’s scholarship… That’s an example of what it will happen to the OP if he continues with the revenge. Will he go to the world explaining that the girl was the one that was dishonest…and defending the op act during his or her whole life? In doing this believes me the OP will suffer more than a temporary satisfaction he or her could have… </p>
<p>I will side with the Op that probably the incidence of the scholarship needed to be explained and clarified. But we now are discussing if the OP needs to proceed to damage the whole life of that girl informing the current university that accepted her. > The answer is a big “NO” for the same reasons I discussed in post #57.</p>
WOW. Of course it is the job of all of us to try and correct injustices at some level, and were are given judgement and taught the basics of right and wrong for a reason. That statement is so basically wrong it is sad. If we cannot even judge that lying is wrong, then things are pretty hopeless. I hope you are never the victim of a crime that could have been prevented by someone that knew about it because they just say “It wasn’t my obigation to fix it or even to judge it”. Unbelievable. And it is more than lying, which I will get to in a minute.</p>
<p>So according to a lot of you, since he loses nothing by her actions, he should do nothing. By that logic, if you witness someone getting robbed or beaten or whatever, you should do nothing. Don’t go to the police, don’t do anything to try and get that person justice. After all, nothing in it for you. The sad thing is too many people feel exactly that way. But this girl (assuming what the OP says is true) is not guilty of just lying on her app, which in itself is enough to get her admission revoked. She is stealing a spot from another student, and we can all agree I think that a spot at Penn is valuable indeed. I suppose the actual crime would be that she has committed a fraud. She has lied to receive something of value, a spot at Penn. So under the theory that he has witnessed a crime, I would submit he has every ethical and moral obligation to bring it to light. I do agree he should do it in conjunction with a responsible adult, such as a parent, counselor, or someone from that scholarship committee.</p>
<p>Back to CalabiYau, lying and stealing are hardly esoteric or personal notions of injustice.</p>
<p>We could use a greater culture where it is more accepted to report wrongdoing. I’m sure the scholarship provider is very happy not to be granting the scholarship to such an undeserving, lying individual.</p>
<p>As for reporting to Penn, this is a tough one because it is very unclear if they would rescind an acceptance with new information. We don’t know how much the liar used this in the application or how much Penn weighed it in granting early admission. Given this and Penn’s inability and likely unwillingness to investigate a new charge, I would say you’d have to leave it alone.</p>
<p>I understand what you are saying crescent, but isn’t up to Penn to decide how to use the full set of facts, which right now they don’t have? If they have it and decide not to rescind, no harm to the girl. If they have the information and decide it is grounds for recision, then it was important information and telling them was the right thing. The spot at their school is their property to award to someone, and they have the right to have the correct facts in doing so. Obviously in this imperfect world there will be many others that lied and no one knew, but that is never an excuse for someone that does know ignoring the situation.</p>
<p>Ok there seems to be lack of clarity on US morality. It is in our culture for individuals to be autonomous and independent. If you see a baby in a carriage rolling towards a cliff’s end and you’re completely in the power to prevent the baby’s death (to not detriment or risk to you) and you chose not to, you ARE NOT LIABLE (actual fact from legal studies class). There are exceptions (parental duty of care, guardianship, etc) but if you’re a stranger, you’re not obligated.</p>
<p>ALL decisions should ALWAYS be made via marginal analysis. It’s tough to quantify intangibles but still, that is the rational decision-making model. So if you get nothing out of it, don’t pursue it.</p>
<p>fallenchemist wrote:
A) adcom throws spots away to moron athletes, legacies, donating families, famous families, etc all the time. It’s not so upsetting for that ONE spot to go to her. Besides, it’s the dominant strategy of everyone to cheat. I asked my regional ad rep if they check appls for lies (200+ hours of community service per week, president of non-existent club, etc). He said they don’t have time for that; they assume person didn’t lie.
I personally know a kid who got in (not attending) who made up being president of Cricket club. If he can do it, why not her? Knowing the kid, she’s probably more qualified.</p>
<p>B)There are no obligations. American society is low-context. We don’t have “morals” and “customs,” only contracts. In this case, jurisprudence governs and by common law example, OP has no obligation to act.</p>
<p>Omega Sanction:
your first comment is irrelevant in light of OP’s bost/benefit analysis to not act
your second comment is just your ignorance of the law.</p>
<p>Lastly: We do not actually know the facts of the case (only OP’s side of the story after a period of time has passed, making it susceptible to phenomenons of recollective memory.)
Also, we don’t know if the girl even claimed the scholarship achievement on her app for Penn. If she didn’t, she got in fair (you wouldn’t expect people to report their dirt if they can avoid it, right?)</p>
<p>“I went forward with the truth and the scholarship was revoked from her”</p>
<p>that seems pretty cut and dry to me, he tattled and it was taken from her so yes, a long self-congratulatory pat on the back was indeed in order</p>
<p>First, I am not aware of anyone claiming otherwise. No one said there was a legal obligation, but your statements regarding morality in this country are wild generalizations (although far too often true, quite sadly). People do the right thing all the time, and testify as witnesses all the time simply because it is the right thing to do. And yes, they do the Good Samaritan thing all the time because it is the right thing to do. It has been shown in many studies that people in the USA are extremely generous with charitable giving and acts. Millions go to rebuild places such as New Orleans and Haiti and all sorts of local charities such as Habitat for Humanity at great cost to themselves. None of that is consistent with your absurd characterization of this country’s ethos.</p>
<p>Your comment about spots going to athletes, etc. is an irrelevant rationalization. I can choose to give all my money to junkies, knowing they will waste it on drugs. It doesn’t give you the right to steal it from me.</p>
<p>As far as your last statement, this whole thread assumes the facts as given by the OP. If they are wrong, then of course so is the “advice”. One of those facts as he gave them was that he knew she claimed it on the app for Penn.</p>
<p>I find it very hard to believe that you have gone through your whole life with nobody helping you just because it was a nice thing to do. Try opening your heart a little, you might feel better.</p>
You are right of course, but I chose to ignore that because not only is it in line with the rest of his post, but these things then have a way of degenerating into a completely off topic discussion of whether the athletes are “up to par” academically. Frankly, as far as the topic of this thread goes, they could be barely functional intellectually and it would still be Penn’s decision as to whether or not to let them in the school. Their school, their slots.</p>
<p>Better to keep the focus on the OP’s original query.</p>
<p>Fallenchemist:
This thread isn’t about anyone’s obligation to correct the worlds injustices.<br>
It’s about the OP’s original question, which was:</p>
<p>I would like some advice on whether I should at least reach out to Penn with the truth</p>
<p>I truly believe the OP will deeply regret that approach if he/she pursues it.</p>
<p>jpm - I wasn’t the one that said anything about the “world’s” injustices, that was CalibiYau and I was responding. And my response was indeed specific to this injustice. This thread is ALL about correcting an injustice. Clearly implied in the statement you quoted is …should I reach out to Penn with the truth (about this lie) The lie may have led to a wrongful admission to Penn, that takes the spot of a potentially deserving recipient, and that is an injustice.</p>
<p>I cannot help what you truly believe, but why is telling the truth about a criminal and/or immoral act something someone should deeply regret, or even regret at all? If this is all true and if the Penn admit were to lose her admission, is that really anyone’s fault but her own for lying? We cannot know the motives of the OP. It could be petty revenge, it could be a sense of morality that says he cannot stand idly by while someone perpetrates a fraud. I tend to get the sense of the latter, others seem to think the former. Since we cannot know, the general ethic applies. And the ethical thing to do when you know someone is committing a crime (and yes, this is a crime as I demonstrated) or even a highly immoral act is to try and make it right.</p>
<p>What if you do what you propose…What if you follow that person that wants to convince you that it is right to tell and that you should tell and report that girl? </p>
<p>“Fallenchemist” is the example I was afraid you will follow [the want that will convince you that it is right to tell the current university] and the reason is because he sounds “right”, he said: “Of course it is the job of all of us to try and correct injustices at some level, and were given judgment and taught the basics of right and wrong for a reason.”</p>
<p>However, OP… remember the following word when you feel convinced it is the “right thing to do in ruin the girl’s life"… You will create so many enemies, not only the girl, the friends, her family…and all of those that will sympathize with her and see her like a victim…do you really want that. In your heart you know you are right but the consequences will have a terrible effect on you, your family and future family…not worthy! You are more valuable and you know you have done no wrong. Why do you want to ruin your own life for a moment of truth?</p>
<p>If you do “You” will be “MISERABLE” ALL your life!
MARK MY WORDS!!! NOT WORTHY…believe me…even thought you have experienced the pain…the revenge will be sour!!</p>
<p>Better described as a pyrrhic victory:
-A Pyrrhic victory is a victory with devastating cost to the victor.
-A very costly victory, wherein the considerable losses outweigh the gain, so as to render the struggle not worth the cost</p>
<p>Oh Mimble…Life will continue it course!
I know you are “Conflicted” with pain, “Angry and upset” because the injustice. It is normal to feel those feelings.</p>
<p>Adults have also experienced similar incidents with friends, coworkers or have seen the suffering of those that were cheated by others as well and have complained about the injustices. Please read and read posts #57, 74 , and 75 anytime you feel conflicted or tempted to pursue…against the girl.</p>
<p>I agree with the OP #31 of “anothercrazymom” read extract that said:</p>
<p>“Mimble, you are frustrated and angry. I don’t blame you. It is difficult to accept that people get rewarded for less than honorable behavior… You are hurting yourself far more now. Just cut this person out of your life and out of your emotional energy. I know that is easier said than done. I am just afraid you will do more damage to yourself then your ex-friend.”</p>
<p>Mimble:</p>
<p>Hope you don’t succumb to the temptation!!! Best wishes in your future…you just learned a valuable experience about different subjects such as pain, cheating, justice and injustice, life, explaining to do, a victim becomes the bad person, different opinions and analysis of same situations, people different perspectives, temptations, bad vs good, the right thing to do or not, consequences…so much at a young age!</p>
<p>Greenery - It is called having the courage to do the right thing. Now it may well be that in some people’s judgement, or even most people’s for all I know, this particular infraction is too small to risk what you say, although I think your description is rather hyperbolic. After all, this OP is going off to college to start a new life with new friends, most likely. But that is a judgement call that only the OP’s sense of morality can answer for him.</p>
<p>I am not dismissing your point, there is a certain relativism to these things. Witnessing a murder is one thing, this level of fraud is another. I bet we can both agree on that. Then it just comes down to where on the OP’s scale it falls, and looking inside himself for what his motivation truly is.</p>
<p>But I have to totally disagree with you on one thing.
If it did play out completely that way, it is no one’s fault but her own for knowingly lying to gain an advantage. Just because others cannot see the ethical truth in that is no reason not to do something. But could there be some fallout? Sure, and that is why I agree it all has to be carefully weighed. But the ethics of the situation are clear. It is just that ethics are not always as black and white as some people would make them out to be. I never meant to imply they were.</p>
<p>I have not read through the whole thread but there seems to be an assumption that Penn will rescind the acceptance if they found out. Is that necessarily true?<br>
I think Penn should know about this and what they decide to do should be left to their judgment.</p>
<p>No one assumed that Bilguun, and no it isn’t necessarily true that they will rescind. In fact I said in post #65 exactly what you did, although I meant to say “Isn’t it up to Penn…” but my meaning was clear from the next sentences.</p>
<p>fallenchemist, “moral obligation” is a dumb idea. Extremist Muslims have a “moral obligation” to kill infidels. Nazis had a “moral obligation” to cleanse their race. Morals are not standard so we act by laws (which we hope are more impartial, a hope that if often upset).</p>
<p>My comment about the athletes was to point out that merit isn’t everything to adcom. </p>
<p>I love it how you neglected to respond to the rest of my arguments…In any event, inaction is the dominant strategy for the OP.</p>
<p>As for the argument “give the school the info and let them decide” - did Penn pay for this due diligence? No. If they didn’t invest in this information, they shouldn’t have it. I am DISGUSTED by this school’s apparent disregard for application falsehoods.</p>