What’s BS is your insistence that the BOJ numbers are right, when even the BOJ admits they’re undercounts, and when the Syracuse numbers are in line with other published research and the BOJ numbers are in line with nothing.
“One reason I am inclined not to believe the really high numbers is the data being higher for HS girls than college girls. I also think that if our daughters were being raped/assaulted at levels even remotely close to what this is reporting that a huge percentage of parents would know and there would be an outcry. There is no way 2 out of 7 HS girls have been forcibly raped or suffered incapacitated rape. IMHO”
Just as hard to believe as the college numbers. 15% of female college students actually raped before they got to college according to the Syracuse study. If you assume that happens ratably over the 4 high school years, that’s 40 per thousand per year while in high school. So living at home with Mom and Dad is just as dangerous (perhaps more dangerous) than being at college? And 20 times more dangerous than what the US DOJ reports for college students.
Preposterous.
Of course they can be explained another way. CF is going with the numbers of every single rape study except the DOJ’s. You are going with the numbers of the one DOJ crime study they admitted was deeply flawed. Who’s not making sense?
Must be the low ACT scores…we are talking about Princeton after all.
http://dailyprincetonian.com/news/2013/03/survey-quantifies-sexual-assault/
@TV4caster, in 2 cases of rape victims I know of, both were raped by ex-BF while in HS. Neither told their parents. Neither set of parents ever suspected their daughter was raped (though in one case, she told some friends and in the other case the victim told her sister later on).
You seem to not want to believe it, but girls are being raped in HS.
Unless girls are monitored 24/7 somehow or kept from visiting friends, etc., how do you know exactly what happens everywhere? I’ve heard of teenagers managing to hid some pretty crazy stuff from parents. Stuff that I figured would be pretty hard to hide (like cuts and bruises, etc.; freakin’ blackeyes are explained away). Also, not every place is well-off suburbia, though even there, it’s not like teenage rape victims are broadcasting what happened to them to the world. And again, some girls may not consider some of the stuff that this new report defines as rape (taken advantage of while drunk; forced sex by a BF) as rape.
It seems that some folks are extremely determined to be willfully ignorant. I find that behavior very interesting.
drunk women can:
- get behind the wheel and drive, facing consequences
drunk women cannot:
- decide to have sex
… make sense.
The DOJ study covered all ages of population right? While the Syracuse study only studied college aged students. It doesn’t surprise me that there would be a big difference in the numbers. Most 20 years old are having a lot more sex consensual or otherwise than people in their 50s.
Not all guys who have or want to have sex in a state where one or both people have been drinking are “rapey”. I am fortunate to have never been raped or sexually assaulted. I did put myself in some compromising positions at times in college and a time with a HS BF who was a couple years older. Guess what . . . they didn’t rape me or force anything. I was lucky to have been with guys who really were nice and didn’t take advantage. It is completely possible for a guy to be with a girl who is intoxicated or just young and naïve and not rape her. Lots of guys do this every day.
Many comments seem to me to be dangerously close to the idea that a drunk or naive or passive woman is just fair game. As the wonderful stick figure video explains, even if they wanted tea before if they are asleep or passed out don’t try to force them to drink the tea. It would seem that the majority of guys get this and operated perfectly nicely under these social rules. So why the apologist chorus for those who can’t seem to get this straight?
@saintfan, I would say that the vast majority of guys are decent moral people, but we can’t pretend that there aren’t psychopaths out there or that this country is Japan (where people of both genders fall asleep drunk in the subway stations with nothing bad happening to them). Nor do I know of some effective psychopathdar. Nor do I think “no means no” is terribly effective with them. Put that all together and it certainly seems that the odds that a girl will get raped go way up when she gets drunk and doesn’t have sober friends to guide her home. Are you trying to deny that that is reality?
Neither study is bogus. Instead when you ask different groups different questions in different ways, you often get very different results, particularly with an issue that people can be reluctant to report, like sexual assault. I think it is well established that the NCVS data underreports more than most others for a variety of reasons including privacy issues, participant selection, phrasing of questions, and if I remember correctly not including incapacitated sexual assault or certain other sexual assault groupings that are typically included in other surveys. Even the BJS was skeptical about the NCVS numbers, so they asks the NRC to review. Their conclusions are at http://responsesystemspanel.whs.mil/Public/docs/meetings/Sub_Committee/20140411_CSS/17_NAP_2014_Est_IncidenceofRape_SA.pdf .
For example, the NCVS includes questions in the form:
Surveys that are done more anonymously on campus listing specific actions instead of using words like “rape” or “sexual attack” get higher responses. For example the study that was the focus of this thread asks questions in the form below. They also made the sexual questions seem more innocent by hiding them within a longer health survey, with less threatening questions.
This does not mean the study that is the focus of this thread is gospel. It also has limitations such as only including a few hundred students at one particular college campus. This is certainly not representative of the national rate. As I interpret it, the survey also includes things like finger insertion as “rape”, which might differ from others definitions.
Most other surveys fall between the two. For example, as similar survey at another upstate NY college is described at https://www.geneseo.edu/webfm_send/2810 . It found 15% of the women reported “attempted or completed rape” and an additional 15% (total 30%) reported some other type of sexual assault. Some other colleges report lower rates, such as the discussed MIT survey at http://web.mit.edu/surveys/health/MIT-CASA-Survey-Summary.pdf that found 17% reported some time of sexual assault and most of that group reported attempted or completed rape (specific numbers not clear). I’ve never seen an anonymous campus survey with anywhere near the low numbers of the NCVS data.
That’s my point @PurpleTitan. If it were impossible not to resist raping someone who is incapacitated, naive or what have you it seems like more of these guys would be doing it. Some people seem to still be saying that the girl has put herself in a position where guys just have no other option. I think we are agreeing, in other words. To use the vernacular, some guys are “rapey” and some guys have a disconnect about definitions and really need that tea video. The other guys, to me, are the control group that prove that it IS possible to resist the temptation or just not to find that set up to be tempting at all.
On another point I don’t think the study is meant to be gospel or meant to be extrapolated to the entire nation. Why criticize it for not doing things that it isn’t trying to do?
Third base is now rape? Somebody better tell the police and the prosecutors and the judges and the juries 'cause I don’t think main street America gets that one.
Wait, momofthreeboys, you don’t think that someone sticking his finger in your vagina without your consent is rape? That’s what the Steubenville guys got convicted of: they raped their victim by sticking their fingers in her. Some parts of main street America seemed to have grasped this definition, even if you have not yet gotten there.
I do believe the Stubenville rape victim was passed out. That IS rape. Not the same as asking a survey question about third base attempts. Think again, CF.
Unwanted sexual penetration with ANY object, penis or otherwise, is rape. I don’t have a technical definition but I would certainly consider some violation of a man that doesn’t involve penetration (of the male) to also be rape.
I think it was obvious that the point being made was that insertion of any object, including a finger, into one’s vagina without consent is also being included under the definition of rape. Not that consensual “third base attempts” are rape.
@mathmom, The DOJ study that I know about, and that we’ve been discussing here, is a Bureau of Justice survey of all crimes, the National Crime Victims Survey. They interview people over the phone or at their house, and ask if they’ve been victims of a long list of crimes, including rape. The survey is not done in private: the person being interviewed might be in hearing of other household members.
Although the survey is for all adults, BJS has broken out their numbers for college aged women, for sexual assault:
http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rsavcaf9513.pdf
The Bureau of Justice makes the raw data for their survey available. You can load it up on your computer and do your own processing on it. They don’t ask all the questions you might want, though. I was wondering whether there was a difference in the rate of rape of women at residential colleges versus commuter colleges, but that information is not available in their survey.
IIRC they survey about half a million people a year,
Nope not obvious.
Data10, I like your post #229.
There was a survey at the University of Oregon. There are quite a few rapes. Also a similar explanation to yours about using the word rape in the questions.
In the University of Oregon survey, one in ten current female students said they had been raped while at school. The survey interviewed sophomores, juniors and seniors, so the average interviewee would have already been at school, say, two and a half years, so that comes to a rate of 40 rapes per thousand per year. (The article I saw seemed to indicate that anal rapes were included, but oral rapes were not.)
In the Princeton survey, 14.8 percent of women students said they had been raped vaginally-- not including oral sex rape. Let’s assume they interviewed women from all four classes: the average student would have been there two years, so that comes to an average of 74 vaginal rapes per thousand per year.
The DOJ numbers for college women are 2 rapes per thousand per year.
Lets see: 40 rapes per year, 74 rapes per year, 2 rapes per year. What’s the outlier here?