@TV4caster The conversation I posted was not presented with the intent of lowering rapes, it was presented as an example of two people speaking about sex before the have it. It was in direct response to Ohiodad51’s post.
@jonri The first part of my writing you quoted was contained in a post directed to a statement made by blossom, not to a statement made by you, which may be the confusing part. In fact, I believe the one word you cut out of that post was @blossom at the beginning.
As to the second section, my son would only be a rapist if he engaged in sex with someone who it was not reasonable to assume had consented to intercourse. I am against using words which contain specific meanings. particularly when they carry the actual stigma that branding someone a rapist does, to describe conduct that is not in itself criminal. I believe the use of the word rape in this way is intentional and designed for maximum shock value. It is also not entirely accurate.
More importantly, why does everything have to be all one way or another? Why push everything to the margins? Is it somehow more persuasive to you to characterize what I said in the way you did rather than what I actually said? Do you simply find it irrational to think that it is unlikely most college students will eschew sex unless there is a pre event negotiation which takes place in some other setting?
Huh? Now I am confused. If there is no “safe harbor” even in having a recording of an actual conversation with a woman who is presumably sober that she intends to have sex with a guy who then consumes alcohol before having sex, what purpose is served by having such a conversation in the first place? Why not just discuss whether you are going to have sex in the normal course of events?
Ohiodad, a college man who makes a practice of having sex with women he’s only known for an hour or two, where drugs or alcohol (or both) were involved, is taking on a higher risk that he’ll be accused of rape that a man who only has sex with women he knows when both parties are sober. Independent of whether a rape took place.
I’m not stigmatizing drunk sexual encounters with strangers. I am pointing out a fact.
I had no trouble teaching my daughters that drinking and going back to a man’s room after a frat party is risky behavior. I had no trouble teaching my sons the same.
@blossom. I agree with that. I thought you were implying otherwise. Thanks for the clarification.
I don’t know of the story TV4caster referenced to, but I will repeat. The intent of my post was to serve as an example of a conversation that two individuals could have before having sex. You said you couldn’t imagine discussing having sex with someone on Friday night on a Thursday afternoon in the library to which I presented an example of just that. It was not intended as a conversation that absolves a man from rape accusations. It was not intended as a conversation that debunks “hookup culture”. It was in direct response to your statement.
This can be done, and should be done, even when sex has been previously discussed.
Is this a fact? Do we know that most accused rapists are men who only knew the victim for an hour or two? I’m really not trying to be cute, but it is presumptions like this that seem to make sense to us, so we assume they are true. If it is true, where is the data that informs us this is true? If we just assume this is true and take precautions based upon it (e.g. advising never to have sex with a man you have know less than three hours in order to reduce risk of rape), then maybe we are doing the wrong thing, wasting resources, giving bad advice.
I think that part of the problem with this question is the use of the term rape, when that’s neither what the study originally linked to (post #1—remember way back then?) was claiming to be measuring, nor is it what most of the discussion on this thread has been about.
Can’t we all agree that we’re talking about a range of things here, and rape (as both legally—in those jurisdictions that have a legal definition for it—and colloquially understood) is only one part of the range? Can we further agree that there are multiple axes along which this spectrum can be measured, and whether an action anywhere along that spectrum is or should be criminal, whether it does or should result in penalties with regard to attendance at college or participation in college life, and whether it is or should be considered socially acceptable do not and can not line up in neat ways?
According to RAINN, only 10% of rapes occur in fraternity houses. The majority occur in the victim’s residence. So you probably ought to also advise your D never to allow a man into her place of residence.
I think it is fine if two people want to talk about sex before they have sex, but again remember that rape, as defined by almost every state, has elements that are vastly differently than someone changing their mind mid-event. Cathy Young’s article that dfdfb posted earlier is really a lucid and well written article about the differences between behavior and rape. As anyone who is following the saga of probably now the 7th or 8 thread on this topic I’m pretty firmly in the Cathy Young camp in her closing paragraph and I really think this disjointed thought about what is and what isn’t actually rape is why the surveys are all over the place (in addition to biases already discussed). And yes I absolutely believe we need to talk about sexual ethics…absolutely, but it seems that too many advocates want to talk about retaliation, punishment, justice and it really clouds the important stuff with alot of noise that really most people are getting deaf about because it doesn’t mesh with either the facts of what they read and hear or it doesn’t mesh with their understanding of criminal law.
Bay, did that also.
My point was not the locale. My point was that teaching your kids to be responsible works for both genders.
Huh? Yes it did. It included only rapes. The numbers quoted were for IR and FR, which were Incapacitated Rape and Forcible Rape.
Absolutely (at least IMO. Not sure everyone else thinks that)
Absolutely (at least IMO). I think the problem is finding where along that continuum a given act is located.
I still want people to answer the questions is posed.
In the Washington Post link, was event 1 a rape, sexual assault, etc, or something that should not be prosecutable at all?
How about incident 2?
Incident 3?
Incident 3 is not rape. Don’t have enough information on 1 or 2.
Dfbdfb, I am surprised you like Cathy Young’s article.
There is a lot of rhetoric in that article. She writes with absolutes and you are a linguist. 
Also, when she complains about rapes that aren’t rapes…yeah… They aren’t rapes. 
Incident 3 is not a rape. Don’t know about 1 or 2. They could be rapes.
Cathy Young does this…
On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 is not a rape…
Therefore 6,7,8,9, and 10 aren’t rapes.
More strawman s…
If she checked a box on a survey while considering any of those incidents, then it is presumed to be rape and a problem.
Actually, the source is the study itself. 
Cathy Young mentions the OXY story. Certain advocates like to mention that case.
There were witnesses in that case. Guy witnesses. Guys were protecting the victim because she was not capable of consenting. Guys. One of the guys who was protecting the victim dropped her off with the RA. And she got away from the RA and that was it. OXY is very clear on the rules. The accused lost.
One of the many problems with using terms like rape and applying them to the situations we are discussing here is that the statistics we know are turned inside out. I believe it is well established that most rapes are committed by people who know the victim, which tracks with the data we have for other serious felonies. This would seem to be exactly the opposite of what is posited by blossom. But if we use the term rape to describe these kind of amorphous sexual assaults we are discussing in these surveys, then it is probably a logical assumption that most such events occur when the parties are not known to each other.
No Bay. 
And there are plenty of studies about frats and rapes. You can just google.
No Bay what?
Number 3 is not a rape. Nobody would check a box.
Google the frats and rape studies.
No thanks, I’ve already read them all.
Really? Then can you post a study and show me that frat guys don’t rape more than other guys? You have mentioned this many times.