<p>There is no diff. in success in HS and Ug. The idea is all the same, nothing new. The efforts have to be brought up at a higher level, that is all. Those who had As in HS, will continue (with the same strategy but increased level of effort). Those who never learn how to get all As in HS, might be a bit more mature and have more incentives (unless they came from private HSs, now the family is actually paying for education, so they better show results). Well, if kids do not realize that the level of effort must be brouhgt up, then no tricks will work. It goes down to the old “hard working attitude”, there is nothing else in there, no special talents, no genius, c’mon, it is an UG, we are not talking about PhD here. </p>
<p>^ ^</p>
<p>Depends on the high school, college, and the individual student. </p>
<p>UG is when many students find what worked in HS in getting As…such as completing all homework/study assignments and working hard may no longer be enough in doing the same in college. Conversely, other HS students who struggled to maintain Cs in HS find to their surprise that less effort, more manageable pacing by college Profs/college, and greater appreciation for creative idiosyncrasies or sometimes even intelligently arguing against Profs works wonders in getting As. </p>
<p>As an aside, an additional follow-on to #12:</p>
<p>Give the Profs at least a month and half lead-time if possible. Don’t wait till the last minute to get LORs for jobs/grad school and if you do, that doesn’t constitute an emergency on the Prof’s part. </p>
<p>Also, if you are in this situation, don’t pull what some older college classmates did by feeling it was such an emergency they frantically made a demanding call for LORs and in the process, interrupted some Profs’ holiday dinners with their families.* </p>
<p>Doing so is not only unlikely to facilitate your getting the desired LORs, but also possibly cause other Profs in the department or if small enough, Profs in the college at large to refuse as word spreads around about that bit of manifested idiocy. </p>
<ul>
<li>Never interrupt Profs’ holiday dinners for the sake of one’s LORs or any other foreseeable non-emergency unless you’ve established such a good rapport with the Prof(s) and/or he/she happens to be easygoing enough that they explicitly stated it was ok. Even then, endeavor to plan ahead to avoid doing so.<br></li>
</ul>
<p>MiamiDAP, we have a friend, a graduate of my daughter’s test-in high school in NYC, who attended the same college that your daughter attended and did considerably better there than she did in high school.</p>
<p>
I find that a disturbing number of students come to college never having seen a real syllabus. They’ve received lots of documents in the opening days of a high school year, but a lot of this amounts to disclaimers that students feel they can live without understanding. But they do not always get a SCHEDULE that the instructor feels bound by. So freshman year, when they get a schedule from a professor, more often than not it disappears into the backpack because they assume it’s meaningless paperwork. It’s not!</p>
<p>As a consequence, I have a lot of students who show up on a Monday not realizing that an assignment is due. Or for a long assignment, they don’t block out time in the weeks leading up to the due date, and then find themselves overwhelmed the night before. Some of that would probably happen anyway (jobs, Xbox, weed, whatever) but surely some of it would be avoided if they just looked at the darned syllabus from time to time.</p>
<p>And yes, some professors are not as good about verbal reminders in class as they might be, but those only go so far even when a professor issues frequent reminders. Nothing beats the ability to look at a schedule that’s always available.</p>
<p>I don’t expect my students to show up having seen anything like a college syllabus previously, because I think HS does often work differently. My H doesn’t have test dates mapped out at the beginning of the year; they’re scheduled as he thinks the class is ready for them.</p>
<p>But I DO think it’s extremely important for college students to understand what WasatchWriters says about them–that they’re a contract, and the instructor should be able to assume students are keeping track of what is due and when (not just major projects, papers, and tests, but also readings, small assignments, special instructions such as the day we’re meeting at the library, etc.) The syllabus also outlines important policies (absents, late work, other expectations) that students need to know.</p>
<p>Being a first semester of freshman year instructor, I put considerable time into going over the syllabus at the beginning, and yes, I do remind them about important dates in class and online, but really, it has to become their responsibility to read it, ask questions if confused, and consult frequently so they don’t get behind or otherwise threaten their success in class.</p>
<p>"MiamiDAP, we have a friend, a graduate of my daughter’s test-in high school in NYC, who attended the same college that your daughter attended and did considerably better there than she did in high school. "
-Glad to hear that. Maturity plays role. My own S. did much better (at different college). He just did not do what he knew very well that needs to be done to get those As in HS. So, he started doing that in college and that worked perfectly. I would not go so far as all As, but many dean’s lists happened. In his case what made a huge diff. was that he was doing what he loved in college being in a program that did not have many GE classes…and we paid full price for him. But again, no tricks. just apply yourself with the increased level of effort. Again, what might not work in PhD program for mathematics, will work in UG, I will guarantee you.<br>
In regard to test-in high school in NYC, my GrandD. is at one of them. Just following in her aunt footsteps, doing her homework, working hard, involved in everything that one can imagine, the same results. I hope she will continue in the same fashion, she is only a sophomorel…</p>
<p>There is no diff. in success in HS and Ug. The idea is all the same, nothing new. The efforts have to be brought up at a higher level, that is all. Those who had As in HS, will continue (with the same strategy but increased level of effort).
[quote]
</p>
<p>I strongly disagree with this statement. There is a significant difference in the way HS and UG classes are taught. HS classes are taught in a manner that forces students to study the material as it is being presented. Graded homework assignments and regular quizzes ensure that HS students are learning the material as it is being taught. The secret to success in many high schools is simple: do a thorough job completing your homework assignments and study for the quizzes.</p>
<p>UG classes are an entirely different ball of wax. In addition to covering more material, UG classes are not structured in a way that forces students to keep up with the material. There are rarely graded homework assignments or quizzes. In most cases, your grade is based on a midterm and final (or in many cases, just a final). To succeed as undergraduates, students must do something they were never required to do in high school; they must force themselves to study the material as it is taught. There isn’t any mechanism in place to prevent students from procrastinating. College campuses are filled with temptations and distractions, and many incoming freshmen lack the self-discipline to study the class material on a regular basis. Many kids who were A students in HS turn into B and C students in college because of this. </p>
<p>Success in UG courses isn’t just about working harder - it’s also about recognizing the need to study the material on a regular basis, even if there isn’t a quiz scheduled. </p>
<p>Excellent article. </p>
<p>I totally disagree with MiamiDAP. College is structured very differently than HS. No comparison. Very different set of expectations even if HS teachers tried to prepare seniors with their expectations. A lot more independence required, and with the freedom to be wherever you want to between infrequent classes a lot more discipline is required.</p>
<p>A brilliant article. And college is VERY different from high school. Yes, there are important similarities and lessons learned in earlier years will definitely serve you well, but it’s a more mature and independent way of learning. And living.</p>
<p>Yes, success in college requires a higher level of self-motivation than in high school.</p>
<p>High school AP courses are supposed to emulate college frosh courses in content and material covered. Perhaps so (though it depends on the specific college and course – best for the student with AP credit to check the college’s old final exams to see if s/he knows the content and material). But they are generally run as high school courses rather than college courses. So it is not surprising that some students who took high school AP courses struggle in actual college courses, whether they start in more advanced courses or repeat their AP courses, since they may not have internalized the self-motivation necessary in college courses.</p>
<p>There is probably a simpler set of fewer rules for success:</p>
<ul>
<li>Read the books and other readings.</li>
<li>Go to class and do what is expected in class (listen, participate, etc.).</li>
<li>Do the assignments and projects, starting them early enough to avoid cramming.</li>
<li>Ask the instructors for help if needed (not just the day before the exam or project due date).</li>
</ul>
<p>@ucbalumnus: I like your rules. </p>
<p>The original article has good points as well. I want to add some discussion of office hour etiquette. These points are not meant to be a rant at all. I enjoy teaching and I almost always enjoy office hours. Nonetheless, here are a few things off the top of my head that may help students from becoming “that guy.” . </p>
<ol>
<li><p>Come prepared with questions. I had one student recently who could not get this. He came in, asked a couple of questions, and then started flipping through his notes. After a minute or so, I asked whether he had any more questions. He then asked, incredulously, “Aren’t these your office hours?” Well, yes they are. And there may be other students outside waiting to see me. Even if not, you could hang out on the sofa down the hall for 15 minutes and come up with more question while I go back to answering e-mails from your classmates. Try to use your time and mine efficiently. </p></li>
<li><p>Do not arrive early. People tend to schedule their time in blocks. For example, I will take the 30 minutes before office hours to answer e-mails, eat lunch, grab a coffee, or simply remind myself what questions I put on the latest problem set. Showing up 10 minutes early and saying, “I was in the area so I thought I would stop in,” verges on thoughtless. If you were hosting a dinner party, you would not want guests arriving early. The same is true with office hours. (At least with office hours, we can and will ask the student to wait outside for a few more minutes.) </p></li>
<li><p>Do not arrive with 5 minutes left in office hours and a handful of questions. If your schedule does not allow you to arrive earlier, send an e-mail explaining this and ask whether the faculty member could see you later. I will always extend my office hours for a student who extends me this courtesy. </p></li>
<li><p>Keep your opinions about faculty salaries or working conditions to yourself. I still remember an incident from almost 30 years ago when I was teaching at a Big Ten university located on an isthmus, where everyone wears red on Saturdays in the fall. I was in my office on a Sunday morning when I heard two students talking. One said to the other, “Go ahead, ask him. They get paid $30,000 a year.” Needless to say, I gently closed my door and that was that. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>This student did not intend for me to hear what he said, and I actually found the episode humorous, but the point remains that you want to keep these thoughts to yourself. If you think salaries are high or working conditions are cushy, get involved with the alumni association after you graduate. But while you are a student, displaying an attitude that faculty members should be at your beck and call is not going to help you. You make think that having two hours of office hours per week is insufficient. You may think that faculty members spend too much time on research. I may even agree with you. Just keep it to yourself. </p>
<p>If you think any of these are unreasonable positions, know that many other faculty members feel as I do. So, when a student goes to ask for a letter of recommendation, he or she will want to be known as the excellent student who is a thoughtful person, not “that guy.” Just follow the Golden Rule and you will be fine. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Your D’s friend’s experience in college vs high school was the same as mine and most HS classmates. </p>
<p>
</p></li>
</ol>
<p>While I understand and sympathize with the reasoning behind rules #1-3, they wouldn’t go over well in more student-centered campus culture where most students tend to be more free-spirited like my LAC. </p>
<p>Considering all the complaints I still hear from recent graduates from my LAC about how their grad schools in larger R1 universities are “too bureaucratized” and “less student centered” even for some grad students*, it is very likely Profs who insist strictly on such rules may not get hired due to negative feedback from student reps on the faculty hiring committee or for those who didn’t get tenure, get weeded out by negative student evaluations/complaints about Profs being “not student centered” or being “too aloof”. </p>
<p>One illustration of this was one classmate & Faculty hiring committee student rep who wrote a short piece recounting how they eliminated one prospective faculty member from further consideration because they along with others on the hiring committee found he from interviews and from observing him teaching a couple of sample classes that he was too aloof and demonstrated he wasn’t interested in being a student-centered faculty member. </p>
<p>She went on to say their impressions of him was that he’d be much more suited to being a faculty member at a research-centered university rather than a more teaching/student oriented LAC. </p>
<ul>
<li>Common complaint among MIA/MPA students at Columbia’s SIPA. Part of this is also due to the “[insert name of small LAC/LAC-like university in suburban/rural campus] bubble” one tends to be ensconced in for 4+ years.<br></li>
</ul>
<p>"There is no diff. in success in HS and Ug. The idea is all the same, nothing new. The efforts have to be brought up at a higher level, that is all. Those who had As in HS, will continue (with the same strategy but increased level of effort). </p>
<p>I strongly disagree with this statement. There is a significant difference in the way HS and UG classes are taught."
- I did not mention anything in regard to how classes are taught. I mentioned only one thing. If one wants to have a high GPA (or might have a goal of all As, which might be applicable, for example, to pre-meds), then all is needed is to work hard. There is no talent, special skills (well, aside maybe from performance type of majors, byt those are pre-selected thru auditions anyway, so if one cannot play an instrument before college, I am not sure if this applicant will be accepted as Music performance major to Cocervatory of Music), definitely no genius is required at UG level. Again, I am not talking about PhD in Math (or other). We are talking about HS and UG level where straight As could be achieved thru appropriate level of effort (which is higher in UG than in HS), no matter how classes are taught or by who or in fact, it is independent study of some sort. There is no book or any magic about it. Do your homework correctly and on time with the level of effort required in class and you will be all set. Works time and again. Ask any pre-med. I point to this group, because pre-meds need to produce high GPA for Med. School application. Look at participation in Greek, you will not find many pre-meds. Ask them how much TV they can afford watching, how much time they can devote for cleanning their place, etc. You will get the picture very quickly. Whatever HS or UG, one just needs to step up the effort required at whatever place. I understand that many think that public state, no name college is a breeze, walk in a park. I am very sorry to dissapoint you as well as any applicant who is planning to attend such a college with one goal of mind - high college GPA. No walk in a park at all, not even for those who graduated at the top of their respecitve very rigorous private or top public HS, they also will need to adjust thier effort upward or they will get derailed from their original plan, it happens time and again.</p>
<p>@cobrat: We certainly agree that R1 universities are different from LACs. As a full professor at an R1 institution, less of my time is spent in the classroom and in office hours than would be the case if I were at an LAC. Likewise, having tenure makes it easier to say “No” to a student. Having said all that, I must reiterate the purpose of the earlier post. These are not rules to be put on a syllabus or faculty member’s website in order to constrain student behavior; rather, they are suggestions to students, posted on an online forum, about how to behave. What concerns me about your response is what a naif might conclude from it: coming early, staying late and not being prepared should be tolerated if the faculty member is at an LAC or is untenured. I would find that troubling. </p>
<p>Finally, even if your story about a candidate being nixed for being “too aloof and demonstrat[ing] he wasn’t interested in being a student-centered faculty member” is accurate, it is of little relevance here. Again, the point is what students should do not what current or prospective faculty members should do. </p>
<p>^ ^</p>
<p>One point in my post is in practice, it’s YMMV and very dependent on whether the student is attending a larger institution/research oriented university or a student/teaching-oriented LAC/LAC-like university and the individual Profs. </p>
<p>Another point is that in many of the latter campus cultures, there would be some vehement disagreement with some parts of those rules from many students due to the prevailing student culture and type of students such campuses tend to attract. </p>
<p>At my LAC, Prof-student relationships are much less formalized than at larger institutions…especially research universities and it is quite commonplace for Profs to invite students over to their homes for meals/hanging out on a regular basis or sometimes to go so far as to hand out their home phone numbers in case of actual academic/personal emergencies.* </p>
<p>Like many other things, sometimes a few students do take it too far and abuse it while the majority are respectful of reasonable boundaries…such as not calling Profs during a major holiday when Profs would be having dinner with their families. </p>
<ul>
<li>Due to many factors, it’s very unlikely this would be the experience of most students at larger institutions…especially research universities unless the student concerned makes a serious effort to develop an unusual rapport with the faculty member concerned by being strongly interested in the field, being good enough to be a prospective grad PhD track student, having some personality trait or professional/social interests both share, etc. Not saying it’s impossible…but it would require much more initiative and effort on the part of the student and a willingness for him/her to accept some Profs may not be interested in developing that rapport.<br></li>
</ul>
<p>
</p>
<p>It is the reality I heard from faculty members, PhD students applying for faculty jobs at LACs, Chronicle/Inside Higher Ed articles, and the fact tenure decisions at LAC do place much more weight on one’s teaching/student mentoring* in the evaluation process than their research U counterparts. </p>
<ul>
<li>Student evaluations on a Prof’s teaching quality, office hours, etc are part of that assessment.</li>
</ul>
<p>" totally disagree with MiamiDAP. College is structured very differently than HS. No comparison. Very different set of expectations even if HS teachers tried to prepare seniors with their expectations. A lot more independence required, and with the freedom to be wherever you want to between infrequent classes a lot more discipline is required. ’
-Again, I never menttioned that HS and UG are the same. I said that stragedy of achieving high GPA is the same, It is working hard, not tricks, no talents, no genious is required, no specific “tactics” or “strategy”. I never comared the structure or independence level, discipline, freedom, expectations. I never ever mentioned any of it. If you work hard, you will achieve at any HS and at any UG, I guarantee that and only that and nothing else. Yesm you will have freedom to watch TV 24 hours, party every weekend, whatever else, Yes, you will have 200 kids in some classes, not 30. There are huge difference, who is a right mind will say that HS and UG is the same. For god sake, you will need to do your own laundry sometime. It does not negate the fact that working hard doing your homework on time an correctly will insure hih GPA. If one relies on something else, there is a chance of being derailed which has happened at college with many top caliber HS kids. Why? They neglected the fact that working hard at college means working much harder than they did in HS. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>You are completely and utterly missing the point. It is as if I am saying “2+2 = 4” and you are responding with “3+4 = 7.” I am talking about good manners (and good strategies) for students. You are talking about something completely different. Reread the original post. The aim was to give advice to students. Try posting something that might be useful for students rather than something that might encourage them to take advantage of those who lack power. And if you are going to respond to someone, respond to what he or she actually wrote. </p>