A Ranking in Which the Ivies (including Princeton) do Poorly (news item)

Colleges & Universities A-Z Princeton University
1

<p>The American Council of Trustees and Alumni has just offered its own ranking of U.S. colleges for the first time this year and the Ivy League schools were not well-regarded. A letter grade was assigned for the quality of the curriculum. Columbia, with its Core, came out with the best "grade" while the rest of the Ivies were regarded either as mediocre or poor. The American Council takes a very traditionalist point of view with the expectation that students in college should be exposed to a set of core subjects to prepare them for citizenship.</p>

<p>Another ranking, another point of view and a reminder that any one ranking provides just another data point in what should be a rich and multi-faceted process of analysis for every rising high school senior.</p>

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<p>American</a> Council of Trustees and Alumni (ACTA)</p>

<p>"With the launch of What</a> Will They Learn? - A guide to what college rankings don't tell you about core curriculum requirements, ACTA answers the question that other rankings and college guides don’t even raise: which universities are making sure their students learn what they need to know. By focusing on general education requirements, this free website helps parents and students decide whether colleges are preparing their graduates to succeed. The accompanying report What Will They Learn? makes clear why parents and students need the website: at most of our leading colleges and universities, the “do-it-yourself” approach to the curriculum prevails and students are graduating with a thin and patchy education.</p>

<p>"The search for the right college can be overwhelming. So many guides, so many rankings. There is one thing none of them will tell you: which universities are making sure their students learn what they need to know.</p>

<p>This free resource does just that, focusing on seven key areas of knowledge. It's designed to help you decide whether the colleges you're considering prepare their graduates to succeed after graduation. </p>

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<p>Grade--School</p>

<p>B--------Columbia (Columbia</a> University - What Will They Learn?)</p>

<p>C--------Dartmouth (Dartmouth</a> College - What Will They Learn?)
C--------Princeton (Princeton</a> University - What Will They Learn?)</p>

<p>D--------Harvard (Harvard</a> University - What Will They Learn?)
D--------University of Pennsylvania (University</a> of Pennsylvania - What Will They Learn?)</p>

<p>F--------Brown (Brown</a> University - What Will They Learn?)
F--------Cornell (Cornell</a> University - What Will They Learn?)
F--------Yale (Yale</a> University - What Will They Learn?)</p>

2

<p>This is from a conservative think tank that believes most American colleges and universities – particularly the top ones – are nothing more than “liberal re-education camps,” and one of the best ways to combat that is to make college nothing more than a continuation of high school – readin’, ‘ritin’ & 'rithmatic. Jes the basics. Don’t need none of that “multicultural” stuff. Keep that snobby stuff in France where it belongs.</p>

3

<p>Or, you know, it could just be another ranking system that values different criteria than the traditional USNWR rankings that so many have become so dependent on. I don’t think it’s fair for you to illegitimize their ranking system just because it ranks your (and my, actually) poorly. Do I agree with it? Of course not. Does that mean it’s just another vast conservative conspiracy, or that it combats higher education? Not at all.</p>

4

<p>I’d have to agree with those ranking after seeing what son#1 had for his first year curriculum at Notre Dame (which got a B) and what son2 did at Princeton. And I have to agree about Yale’s low marks in this regard after hearing what a friend’s daughter has had.</p>

<p>A good classic education is available at all the schools but kids tend to be lazy and seek out at least one or two easy courses. I’m sure son#1 would never have read Moby Dick or taken philosophy if it had not been required.</p>

5

<p>I don’t know t-san, I think this probably is a conservative site. Did you not read some of the comment given for some of these schools…including Princeton?</p>

<p>“No credit given for U.S. Government or History because narrow and trendy courses may satisfy the Historical Analysis distribution requirement.” —taken from the Princeton page.</p>

<p>“narrow and trendy” screams old-hat tradition. It’s clear that the methodology of this ranking system does not advocate a liberal education where one is free to choose the classes one wishes to take, however narrow or trendy they may be.</p>

6

<p>Check out the graduation rates of the “A” list schools versus the “30,000 +” category which gets mostly F’s and D’s</p>

7

<p>The rankings are excellent for those whose only criteria is an incredibly extensive curriculum. I personally don’t know any people who would chose one of the schools on their “A” list over any Ivy League or other top-tier school.</p>

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<p>Maybe Texas if I were in-state with a good financial package. Football is much better.</p>

9

<p>t-san, I would illegitimize their criteria even if they ranked Princeton #1. The more you read from them, the more you come to understand their agenda, which is, in fact, political.</p>

10

<p>I completely disagree with these rankings. Forcing a student to take courses is not the essence of a liberal arts curriculum. Having a few core requirements is fine as it helps students learn essential skills for college, but having plenty of requirements (more than 4-5) is not an indicator of success. In fact, this ranking would give community colleges and some local state universities (not like the UCs or any other equivalent system) an A because of they require students to take many classes, which some would take depending on their major, anyway. However, the freedom of not requiring students to take too many courses is that it gives them the opportunity to take a few core classes and use them as a base for possibly declaring a minor or even a possible major. It also gives them the freedom to take any anonymous class, which they would not have taken if there was restrictive core curriculum. This is college, not high school. College students will always look for easy courses and good professors. A restrictive core curriculum will not hinder this, but it could cause students to transfer universities, or worse, dislike learning. Education is meant to be enjoyed, not despised.</p>

11

<p>I find it incredibly amusing that the President of the organization went to Harvard considering it earned a ‘D’. :P</p>

<p>Turns out there are several similar cases.</p>

<p>Individual - Position - Alma mater - Grade</p>

<p>Jerry L. Martin - President 1995-2003 - Northwestern - F
Stephen Balk - Board of Directors - Berkeley - F
Edward F. Cox - Board of Directors - Princeton and Harvard - C and F
Edwin Meese III - Board of Directors - Yale - F
Robert T. Lewit - Chairman - Harvard - D
Lee E. Goodman - Treasurer - University of Virginia - D
John D. Fonte - Secretary - University of Arizona - D
Erin O’Connor - Research Fellow - Berkeley - F
Maurice Black - Research Fellow - University of Pennsylvania - D</p>

12

<p>Considering the objectives of the organization, Columbia might be sorry to be classed so differently from it’s peers!</p>

<p>Their analysis is too ridiculous to justify real comment. Kids and parents choosing a school should be aware of gen-ed requirements and should consider whether the school’s policy is a good fit for the student in question. Grading Brown an F vs. Columbia a B (and, I imagine, St. John’s an A) is doltish. Who goes to Brown without being aware that there is an open curriculum there? Who goes to St. John’s without being aware that the curriculum offers very little choice?</p>

13

<p>Hmm - Columbia (arguably the most liberal of the Ivies), gets the highest of all the Ivies’ grades. The point isn’t whether the site is conservative, or whether you agree with the rankings. The point is this craptacular set of attacks on the site and ranking system just because it ranks our colleges lower than we feel they should be ranked. Like I said, I’m sure the rankings aren’t accurate. You can disagree with the rankings without making it a political issue. Newsweek is a liberal organization, and so is THE (they do world university rankings). But we don’t hear this type of outcry when they publish their rankings and UC Berkeley is ranked highly (or Harvard, Columbia etc). Why is that? It’s a double standard, and that’s my point.</p>

14

<p>By the way, a lot of the schools who got A’s are very good schools. UT Austin, A&M, Baylor, and West Point are all excellent schools all around. And if you think this is a conservative conspiracy, why is UT Austin ranked so highly? A true wingnut would have given them a much lower grade because Austin is a pretty mainstream campus politically (which makes it pretty damn liberal in comparison to A&M, Baylor, and West Point). It pretty much should align politically with schools like Princeton, Dartmouth, etc.</p>

<p>And why aren’t schools like Bob Jones, Pensacola, Liberty, etc. given A’s?</p>

15

<p>Good information.</p>

<p>I think a Core curriculum is a necessary component of a thorough education. Despite what way too many people think, incoming students at Harvard aren’t terribly intelligent yet. They don’t know how to write as well as they could, they don’t know how to reason as well as they could, they don’t know how to THINK as well as they could. To think that anyone can reach their full logical potential in high school is a huge misconception. A Core curriculum ensures that all students graduate with these necessary skills.</p>

<p>On the other hand, I don’t see how economics is a terribly important field in gaining logical skills. It seems rather esoteric to me, although the rankings may be using it as a method of measuring how one may apply the things that one learns in the classrooms (e.g., pure math) to the real world.</p>

16

<p>And that ^ is a perfect example of how someone could look at that ranking methodology and objectively consider it’s legitimacy.</p>

17

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<p>So, being forced to grind through Calc I+II and Intro Chem+Physics will enable me to do arithmetic? What?</p>

18

<p>Wow. That was surprising. But what do these people know? Obviously that Harvard is tied for first, and Yale is not that far behind. Yale does not deserve an F, nor Harvard a D. And what makes Columbia better than the rest?
I guess I have to read the articles.</p>

19

<p>The organization has nothing at all to do with education. It is a conservative think tank trying to figure out how to win future elections for the Republican party. That’s it, period. Take anything and everything they say and understand it is a partisan agenda. Don’t teach world cultures, don’t allow for any teaching of history that might infer that American leaders or white settlers could have possibly ever made mistakes. Don’t teach econ because it might bring in ideas other than trickle-down. Do you think its a coincidence that all their favorite schools are military academies and schools from the former slave states?</p>

20

<p>That’s the most stupid thing I’ve ever heard. Virtually every single state that became a state before 1800 used to be a slave state. So I guess USNWR is a conservative think tank because Harvard (MA), Princeton (NJ), Yale (CT), MIT (MA), etc. are all situated in states that used to be slave states.</p>

<p>I know you are just trying to demean schools in the south, but you seem to have conveniently forgotten that two New York schools also got A’s. So please explain how that aligns with your conspiracy theory.</p>

<p>And if you read the article, you’d see that they encourage teaching economics. In fact, schools lose points for not teaching econ, not the other way around. </p>

<p>Where in the world do you get your proof that UT Austin, A&M, Arkansas, Baylor, etc. don’t teach world cultures? I’m interested to see your facts to support that theory, because a quick check shows that UT Austin offers Ancient History and Civilization, Asian Culture/Languages, Arabic Language/Literature, Asian Studies, Czech Language & Culture, African American, Asian American and Mexican American studies, European Studies, French, Italian, Jewish studies, Latin American studies, Middle Eastern studies, Russian/Eastern European/Eurasian studies, Russian Language/Culture, Scandinavian Studies, Spanish, Turkish Language and Studies, Urban Studies, and Women’s & Gender studies as majors. Maybe not for you, but for most people, this is a pretty comprehensive list of various cultures to study.</p>

<p>It’s very easy to sit and try to chalk up a ranking system to a political conspiracy. That’s not difficult at all. In fact, I showed how easy it was in a previous post concerning THE and Newsweek. Of course I didn’t expect you to actually look at that information because it would involve the analysis of fact, which apparently you abhor.</p>