Columbia among the Ivies

Colleges and Universities A-Z Columbia University
1

<p>I cobbled these opinions together from various sources. They focus primarily on the undergraduate programs of the various Ivies. I think there is a ring of truth in them.</p>

<p>For undergraduate education:</p>

<p>Tier I - Yale, Princeton, Brown, Dartmouth;
Tier II - Harvard, Penn, Columbia, Cornell </p>

<p>Yale - Extraordinary academics (though skewed away from the hard sciences). Provides luminaries on the faculty combined with a stunning array of intellectual offerings (formal courses as well as unique extra-curriculars like Grand Strategy). Reigns supreme in the fine arts, offers great leadership and service opportunities. Greatest undergrad focus [tutoring, mentoring, residential college housing, funding for ECs] with the possible exception of Dartmouth. Market leading endowment performance has Yale rolling in dough. The brand name is second to only to one. It feels closer to the centers of American power than perhaps all the other top schools (Good Shepherd anyone?). Often rates rather low in "student happiness" surveys. Major issue - old New Haven, which is still depressing after all these years </p>

<p>Princeton - Phenomenal academics, probably the most balanced of the Ivies across all fields of study. World class in arts, humanities, social sciences, hard sciences AND engineering. Only Stanford can surpass Princeton among the elite private schools in this regard. Pound for pound it's the best academically for undergraduates of all the Ivies with the largest endowment for undergraduate academics and a pristine idyllic campus. Major issue - Old Nassau is elite and it FEELS elite --> Is Princeton too cultured & manicured? Does it simply have too much money?? </p>

<p>Brown - The place for independent students who are brave (or foolish enough) to design their own programs of study; very good academics especially in the humanities; new arts link with RISD may effectively place Brown in the same league as Yale; stellar and very self-selecting student body and lots of momentum because of strong University leadership. And then there's the aura of celebrity which hangs over the campus like a golden halo. Major issue - lack of research-heavy grad schools means Brown will increasingly NOT be perceived as a top school by rankings that favor engrg & medical focused universities (an issue also hurting Princeton). </p>

<p>Dartmouth - Weakest in a pure academic sense among the Ivies (due to its limited graduate programs), but still one of the very best in the nation for a classic liberal arts education. The focus on undergrads is rivaled perhaps only by Yale and the demanding rigor of its course work, especially in math, science and engineering is almost unparalleled among its peers (think more like MIT). Mentoring from senior faculty is reputedly the best in the Ivies, and lots of resources ($$$) are committed to the undergraduates and to undergraduate research. Does a fantastic job of creating a very strong bond among and with its students -- it really is a "tribe". Very self-selecting student body. Off-campus and international programs the best in the Ivies. Major issue - those long and cold and long and cold New England winters.</p>

<hr>

<p>Harvard - #1 brand. #1 endowment. And Harvard manages both aggressively. Overall, Harvard has more - more money, more Nobelists, more books, more museums, more labs, more of everything. The school is loaded with superstar faculty (Nobels, National Academy members, etc). Harvard College has the highest yield and one of the lowest admit rates; it may have more students that are really off the charts than any other school in America. The place is Institutional with a capital I. Major Issue - Harvard clearly favors its graduate schools, and the abandoned undergrads don't complain too much because they count themselves lucky to even be there. A low-level and pervasive unhappiness though can be sensed among many undergraduates, as most believe their peers are getting a better education and having more fun elsewhere.</p>

<p>Penn - Academically, great breadth across many disciplines. Unrivalled in undergrad business and nursing, top notch in arts and social sciences. Maybe the weakest among the research-oriented Ivy in the hard sciences. Increasingly prominent in humanities ECs (Kelly Writers House, Civics House, Humanities Forum, etc.) to counter pre-professional Wharton-itis. Lots of academic freedom and perhaps the most flexible after Brown; Penn works hard to ensure cross-disciplinary work. Students can take classes at all Penn's schools (except for Med), benefiting from what may be the second best group of graduate schools among the Ivies. Work hard, party hard ethos. Major Issue - Sheer size and "grittiness" mars the Ivy experience and an anemic job market in Philadelphia (no incentives to stay local unlike Harvard/Cambridge or Stanford/Palo Alto). </p>

<p>Columbia - Blessed with a long legacy and unrivalled NYC location. Any professor who wants to live in NYC most likely wants to teach at Columbia. That creates great resources for students. Unique Core Curriculum defines the academic experience, and Columbia is stellar in many areas. One of the very best in arts and social sciences, very strong in sciences too. Famously political and activist, though jobs on Wall Street seem to carry the day with students. Advising, facilities and access to popular courses draw chronic complaints from the students. Campus expansion may help, although there's never enough space in Manhattan. Major Issue - Does Columbia rely too much on the lure of NYC for students and faculty alike? </p>

<p>Cornell - Big Red!!! Awesome academics can't be touched in engineering and the hard sciences. Unrivalled and unique offerings (agriculture school, labor relations, hotel mgmt) within the Ivies. Don't pooh pooh the admit rate - Cornell is the biggest among the best and - more importantly - it has a slightly different mission that the other places, namely it's the land grant school for NY state. It's a major research center even for undergrads. Another idyllic - perhaps isolated - locale for college and the life of the mind. Student diversity varies tremendously between the undergraduate schools (there are seven). And the academic programs are very structured, (aka, rigid). Major issue - Immense academic pressure at a competitive place (read grind), and those bitter winters high abve Cayuga's waters.</p>

2

<p>^overall those descriptions are among the best i've read of the ivy league, the mistake you or whoever put this together made was tiering the ivies the way they did. I wouldn't tier them at all, and if i were to, hyp would take it, because they attract slightly better students, and heck give you more pedigree than anywhere else. they're also slightly better reputed by employers and gradschools alike, and have each have twice the endowment of any of the other 5. All of these are marginal evaluations and subjective, many on this forum would disagree. What i like about the descriptions is that they give a decent snapshot of each ivy. coming to the tiers Brown and dart definitely do not deserve to be up there, and harvard just by virtue of resources, brand name and the peers you'll have, does. brown is relatively weak in the pure sciences and their engineering isn't great at all. dart is better at this but as the description puts it "weakest in the pure academic sense", that by itself should exlude it from top tier. The point of my post is the tiers are thoroughly unneccesary, people feel strongly about their school and will argue endlessly about which are top tier and which aren't. They're all top schools, that isn't a euphemism it's pretty objective, each really quite different from the others, and you'll only get into a few, if any.</p>

3

<p>WOW!!!!!! What a THIEF you are!!!!!! </p>

<p>You have the audacity to completely copy a post I made, essentially in its entirety may I add - and take credit for it. What a pathetic person you are!!!!! </p>

<p>If this was real life you'd be fired for plagiarism and then sued for stealing. </p>

<p>Since it's an Internet thread, I'll take this as a compliment for the research I have done and perspective that I have developed.</p>

4

<p>^well red and blue - good stuff (except the tiers of course)</p>

5

<p>Disagree as well. The post is 80% incorrect. For one thing, "Grand Strategy" isn't an extra-curricular. Also see <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1059701058-post5.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1059701058-post5.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

6

<p>This is kind of stupid.</p>

<p>As for the "rankings," you do not provide any support for why the schools in tier 1 are better than those in tier 2. You don't connect the descriptions to the rankings. </p>

<p>And as for the descriptions itself, they're superficial and a bunch of hogwash generalizations. For example:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Any professor who wants to live in NYC most likely wants to teach at Columbia.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Any any professor who wants to live in Philadelphia most likely wants to teach at Penn... your point?</p>

<p>
[quote]
and Columbia is stellar in many areas. One of the very best in arts and social sciences, very strong in sciences too.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'm not sure how this can't be said about Harvard, Princeton, Penn, Cornell, etc.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Major Issue - Does Columbia rely too much on the lure of NYC for students and faculty alike?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Where did you come up with this as being a "major issue"? Columbia would be an excellent school without NYC (it was when NYC was a terrible crime-ridden city 30 years ago). I've never heard of someone complaining that Columbia is to dependent on NYC.</p>

7

<p>BalletGirl: Your post is interesting, but you lose credibility when you place schools like Brown and Dartmouth in a tier above Columbia, Harvard, Penn & Cornell. If you are rating based on specific criteria such as "least academic rigor" and "best party schools among the Ivies" then, yes, Brown & Dartmouth belong in a "Tier One" category by themselves.</p>

8

<p>I've attended both Columbia and Dartmouth and objectively I would say the Dartmouth academic experience has significant advantages primarily because of the lack of TA, much smaller classes, and far more resources (grants, study abroad, etc).</p>

<p>Dartmouth and Columbia, in terms of academic rigour and grading were about equal.</p>

9

<p>Academic rigor may well depend upon area of study and year (freshman vs. junior, for example) spent at each school. I am not of the opinion that Dartmouth is anything less than an academically elite school, it just isn't categorically superior to Columbia, Harvard, Penn or Cornell by any stretch of one's imagination. Or, maybe, only by a very great and misguided stretch of one's imagination, even if one attempts to dress it up by spelling "rigor" as "rigour', or even as "rigeur". ( I had to post as my post # was at the dreaded 666 level prior to this post).</p>

10

<p>Dartmouth spends the most (by a wide margin) on its students (source: COHE), has no TAs teaching classes, caps its classes at 100 students, has special these research grants for undergrads in most majors (huge advantage), is two-three times as rich per student as any of the non -HYP ivies, has has its own study abroad program (its incredible and better than any school in the country), ranks in the top 7 in every grad placement stat, etc. Its unique.</p>

11

<p>slipper1234: Dartmouth is great. If you research the resources and programs available at many elite colleges and universities, you might be surprised at the benefits and opportunities offered. Dartmouth just isn't categorically better than at least a dozen colleges and universities in addition to Harvard, Cornell, Penn & Columbia. Since when is "capping classes at 100 students" relevent to a discussion of "quality education". Many great LACs have zero % to less than one % of classes of 50 or more students. Dartmouth lags behind many National Universities and LACs in percent of classes of less than 20 students, not even in the top 20 of the top 50 National Universities, and not even in the top 30 or so when compared to the top 50 LACs.</p>

12

<p>It actually is very different. There are many institutional things that Dartmouth does that don't show up in rankings and frankly most students are not aware of. Having siblings at other top schools and having attended another one myself, I can assure you there are differences.</p>

<p>Take study abroad for languages: Dartmouth 100% offers its own programs with 100% dartmouth students (about 20) led by a tenured professor. Besides classes taught by that professor and other local professors, there is a large budget for weekly weekend educational excursions (led by that same advisor/ professor) to museums, historical sites, etc. And I'm talking about renting a nice luxury bus, with meals included type of excursions. No school overtly concerned with budget would do this.</p>

<p>Then Dartmouth takes it a step further and offers international study programs for your major called FSPs. Think study abroad for academics: (examples, anthro in auckland, NZ; music in london; Econ with LSE; philosophy in Edinburgh; etc). Same concept (taught and led by professor, 20 only Dartmouth students, etc)</p>

<p>Theis is just one example of many differences that separate a more undergrad focused school like Dartmouth from less undergrad focused schools.</p>

13

<p>balletgirl, what an extraordinary summing up of the Ivies. I agree with the two tiers.</p>

14

<p>For the record, BalletGirl didn't prepare that post. I wrote 98% of it on a much earlier post in a thread focused on undergrad education. The thief added a few lines in the Dartmouth section and in the Yale section relating to undergrad happiness; I the case of Yale, her addition is completely off base. Yale students are cited (and from my own experience) extremely pleased with their choice of college.</p>

15

<p>It's great that people come here from other boards to post but I really wish everyone would put disclaimers of what school they are from.</p>

<p>For example, slipper went to both C and D as s/he said but is a very biased person. S/he did not enjoy his/her time at columbia and is always very critical of it. Red&Blue is a penn student/grad and posterx is incredibly biased towards yale (tho i've never seen s/he claim to have graduated)</p>

<p>Basically, all of this needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Everyone will defend their school to the end and most people have very biased and skewed visions of the other ivies. </p>

<p>Honestly, I agree with maybe 10% of the original post (Brown = tier 1?) and I'm not even going to bother with the replies. Red&Blue, to my knowledge, only has this website to get his/her info from for the other schools and as such, this post should not be used for any qualitative rankings of the schools.</p>

16

<p>R&B, got a link to where you posted this at an earlier date?</p>

17

<p>Sorry Skraylor, but I don't get much information from this site. I base my views on many sources of data:</p>

<ul>
<li>the Chronicle of Higher Education</li>
<li>US News undergraduate and graduate rankings</li>
<li>Academic Analytics faculty productivity rankings</li>
<li>NIH funding rankings</li>
<li>the Chronicle of Philanthropy</li>
<li>the NRC rankings (although very very dated at this point)</li>
<li>overall financial statistics (endowment, fundraising, faculty support) per school</li>
</ul>

<p>YOU may not use data (based on your many posts) but I find it easier to argue with facts. If you check these sources, you'll find material substantiation for almost every sentence in my OP.</p>

18

<p>
[quote]
YOU may not use data (based on your many posts) but I find it easier to argue with facts. If you check these sources, you'll find material substantiation for almost every sentence in my OP.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>LoL. </p>

<p>No matter where you get your information, my point was that it is always second-hand and is always biased. If you want to go quoting numbers, that's fine and you can get things to back that up. However, when you want to go and make very subjective evaluations of schools, that's not so fine.</p>

<p>For example: It feels closer to the centers of American power than perhaps all the other top schools (Good Shepherd anyone?)
-Pound for pound it's the best academically for undergraduates of all the Ivies with the largest endowment for undergraduate academics and a pristine idyllic campus.
-new arts link with RISD may effectively place Brown in the same league as Yale; stellar and very self-selecting student body and lots of momentum because of strong University leadership. And then there's the aura of celebrity which hangs over the campus like a golden halo. Major issue - lack of research-heavy grad schools means Brown will increasingly NOT be perceived as a top school by rankings that favor engrg & medical focused universities (an issue also hurting Princeton).
-Weakest in a pure academic sense among the Ivies (due to its limited graduate programs), but still one of the very best in the nation for a classic liberal arts education.
-A low-level and pervasive unhappiness though can be sensed among many undergraduates, as most believe their peers are getting a better education and having more fun elsewhere.
-Blessed with a long legacy and unrivalled NYC location. Any professor who wants to live in NYC most likely wants to teach at Columbia. That creates great resources for students.......Advising, facilities and access to popular courses draw chronic complaints from the students. Campus expansion may help, although there's never enough space in Manhattan. Major Issue - Does Columbia rely too much on the lure of NYC for students and faculty alike?
-Another idyllic - perhaps isolated - locale for college and the life of the mind. Student diversity varies tremendously between the undergraduate schools (there are seven). And the academic programs are very structured, (aka, rigid). Major issue - Immense academic pressure at a competitive place (read grind), and those bitter winters high abve Cayuga's waters.
-(notice nothing from Penn isnt actually that bad to say...)</p>

<p>At best you're making sweeping generalizations. At worst you're downright making things up based on what I have to believe are horrid stereotypes. You do see my point right? My favorite is the "new link with RISD will place Brown on same level as yale". What basis is there for that!?!??!?! That's not really reflected in usnwr rankings (arguably the most important publication as far as prestige goes even tho i have argued vehemently against it before) so you cant quote me numbers for that. Honestly, I feel you were smoking weed with some brown grads and they said it so you stole it. </p>

<p>My intention is not to attack you or your post but merely to keep you from spreading selective information (again, at best). Stick to what you know and have experienced first hand. If you want to say "my friend from hypccbd or p said X" then go for it, but please be sure to mention that. If you want to say "yale has a larger endowment than brown" then you have the backing to say that too because of the numbers. But seriously, "Pound for pound it's the best academically for undergraduates of all the Ivies with the largest endowment for undergraduate academics and a pristine idyllic campus."??? No. Just no. Maybe I am biased because I spend most of my time on CC on this board but the general feeling here is about "does a school fit YOU". Not so much "does it rank the highest in X regard". </p>

<p>So, I don't think I'm asking for too much from you. Either stick to what you know, don't allow other people from the chronicles of higher education (or any other publication) to make sweeping generalizations for you, or simply make sure you footnote who is giving you anecdotal/subjective evidence. That's all. :)</p>

19

<p>Disclaimer: I go to Columbia.</p>

<p>Okay, I agree with some of the overall descriptive qualities of the "tier" post on page 1, but I think the grouping is bogus. Princeton, Harvard and Yale are still the most prestigious Ivy Leagues. I'm sorry, but it's true: acceptance rate, endowment, Nobel professors and research and science departments - they win them all. I'm not sure how you could rationally believe that Brown outranks Harvard. I know someone who got waitlisted at Tufts and got into Brown. Sure, each school has great things to offer and things that make them special and stand out (Cornell's engineering, Brown's independent curriculum, etc). But if you think it doesn't make a difference (a nominal difference, but a difference nonetheless) if you say you went to Princeton or if you say you went to Brown (or Yale vs Dartmouth)... well, there is a certain amount of denial going on there. I'm not saying I endorse that elite, pomp and circumstance, pedigree-based characterization, but I'm just saying it exists and they are not a: all equal or b: ranked in that tier system described in a previous post. If you <em>had</em> to rank them in tiers (and I agree with someone else's post that said we should get rid of the tiers), the rank should/would be: Tier 1 Princeton, Yale, Harvard and Tier 2 Everything else. </p>

<p>And by the way, I am not down on Columbia: I love it here, am proud of going here, spent a year at Cambridge in Columbia's abroad program, think that Columbia kicks as* and am going to Princeton for graduate school next September.</p>

20

<p>I would never want to go to Columbia for undergraduate (more for its being in the incredibly distracting NYC than anything with the school itself), but for grad school, Columbia is easily at or near the top of my list. (for a CBS/SIPA combo)</p>

<p>I have nothing but the highest respect for Columbia and consider it better than Dartmouth, Brown, Cornell and equal to Penn in terms of undergraduate and graduate/professional excellence</p>