@iwannabe_Brown: Regarding collegiate athletic conferences, I think it might be good to look not just at the associated schools, but at the philosophies and priorities of the athletic programs themselves. You mentioned two interesting conferences, NESCAC and Ivy. A few others are the Liberty League, the Centennial Conference, the Patriot League, NEWMAC and the UAA. From what I’ve heard of these seven, it may be the UAA model that most closely adheres to the scholar/athlete model.
There are eight Ivy League schools, so why would a list of public ivies have 30 schools? Also, this may show my youth a bit, but 2001 was a long time ago.
I would be more apt to consider a list of the top eight private schools to be public ivies:
-UC Berkeley
-UCLA
-UVA
-UMich
-UNC Chapel Hill
-William and Mary
-Georgia Tech
-UCSD
Perhaps it is foolish at me to look at rankings, but Rutgers is the 26th best public university in the U.S., far from top 8. A good school? Yes. Warranting a comparison to an Ivy League school? No.
But the Ivy League isn’t “the top 8 schools” in the country. It’s an athletic conference founded in 1954 (and you thought 2001 was old?)
Sorry, but Georiga Tech??
Actually, I would say there is a big difference between Rutgers-New Brunswick and its far larger suburban campuses in Piscataway. New Brunswick is a great town to be panhandled or robbed in. Piscataway less so, but it’s very suburban and very spread out. I’m not sure why someone chose to put in a long paragraph about it. The other campuses (Camden and Newark) are less desirable geographically. Rutgers’ New Brunswick campus is right near the bad neighborhoods (there are not really any good ones). The majors vary dramatically and I would not let my rising senior live or commute to Rutgers New Brunswick campus. Many of the other smaller NJ state colleges are ok. TCNJ gave great out of state aid through 2014, then decided fall 2014 to focus on poor and illegal immigrants to in state ‘residents’ and those from Abbott school districts.
@Qwerty568, if we’re going to limit to 8 publics, personally, I’d bump out UCSD and GTech (great in STEM fields only) with UW-Madison and UT-Austin (great in some fields outside STEM as well as STEM fields).
Those schools (as well as GTech, UCSD, UIUC, UDub, & Purdue in STEM, IU in business and music, and NCF as a LAC option) are great options if you are in-state for them.
@NASA2014: GTech has higher SAT scores than any public university in the nation. If nothing else, this makes it a school to be aware of.
Once again back to the perennial discussion of public Ivies…
Here’s my take on it from a old thread:
"In it’s historical meaning, the term “Public Ivy” referred to a small group of the more selective public universities, which have attracted students from the Northeast for many years. Thus, they had a certain amount of social prestige as well as academic quality, which made them an acceptable alternative to the Ivies and other top Northeastern private colleges/universities (perhaps, particularly if one failed to be admitted to an Ivy.) These universities included Michigan, Wisconsin, Virginia, William & Mary, North Carolina, Vermont, and Miami of Ohio.
Currently, most people use the term "Public Ivy’ to refer to the more selective flagship public universities at which one supposedly can get an Ivy-quality education. (It also used to mean an Ivy-quality education at a state school cost, but I’m not sure that the cost is a defining factor anymore, given the rising cost at public universities and the more generous financial aid at the most selective private universities.)
Though I prefer to restrict the term “Public Ivy” to its original meaning, there is a lot to be said for the more recent use of that term. While the overall quality of students and the available resources at the top public flagships might not match those at an Ivy, there is no denying that it is certainly possible for a top student to get an education across a broad range of disciplines that is as good as or better than an Ivy league university.
So, here are my revised criteria for what qualifies as a public Ivy-League university:
- It is a more selective public flagship university (either overall, or in its honors programs);
- It has strong faculty and departments across a broad range of disciplines;
- It offers a strong undergraduate education—in some combination based on size/teaching quality/rigor/honors programs;
- It has academic prestige (and, possibly social prestige);
- it appeals outside its region, preferably on a national level (and, possibly, on an international level).
My list would include: Michigan, Wisconsin, Virginia, William & Mary, North Carolina, UCB, UCLA."
Washington might make the cut. Texas is probably too regional in its appeal.
In light of recent actions by the Texas legislature, might want to add that Public Ivies exclude schools where students pack guns when going to class.
It’s sad that Penn State is always left out.
In Ohio, Miami of Ohio is considered to be below Ohio State.
“In Ohio, Miami of Ohio is considered to be below Ohio State.”
Yes, of course, Ohio State is academically much stronger. Ohio State wasn’t always held in such esteem, especially outside Ohio. At one time, it was considered to be just a big, mediocre, highly unselective state uni. Miami is much older, and at one time had much more social prestige and appeal to students from the Northeast.
Post #25, UCSD is excellent in Econ and perhaps Political Science. Not just STEM.
@DrGoogle, you’re right. STEM and a few selected social sciences, I should say.
In terms of OH, OSU was open-admissions decades ago when MiamiU already had cachet in circles stretching from the Northeast to Chicagoland. MiamiU is still known for its b-school. Cincy was/is known for its design school and co-op program. Akron for a certain type of engineering. The rise of OSU has made it harder for other OH schools (both public and private).
@zapfino, good points. The fellow at publicuniversityhonors.com recently published an interesting analysis of the departmental strength of these public universities.
The fifteen disciplines he surveyed were business (undergrad), engineering (undergrad), biological sciences, chemistry, computer science, earth sciences, economics, education, English, history, math, physics, political science, psychology and sociology.
http://publicuniversityhonors.com/rankings-academic-departments-private-elites-vs-publics/
@UWfromCA, thanks for the links.
So, the nonengineering and nonbusiness school/department rankings are based on the US News graduate rankings?
That is correct, and the author noted another qualification: “Each university listed below offers either a major or graduate program in at least 11 of the 15 departments in order to be ranked. Dartmouth, Caltech, Georgia Tech, and a few other outstanding universities are not listed below for one or both of those reasons.”
^ While the use of graduate rankings seems appropriate for the reasons stated on the honors colleges website, I wish there was a better alternative to the US News graduate rankings. Basically, those rankings are still based on reputational surveys and miss a number of factors of importance to undergraduate majors. These factors would include things such as research and internship opportunities, teaching quality, advising, mentoring, class size, facilities, etc.
@zapfino, considering that it is academics doing the ranking, it seems a bit preposterous to suggest that they would not take research and facilities in to consideration, at least (and possibly mentoring and teaching quality as well). What do you think they would be basing their rankings on?
@PurpleTitan mostly publications and faculty prestige. Graduate school is not undergraduate school and the rankings really require weighing completely different things.
@iwannabe_Brown, I would say that it depends on the student.
Some kids (granted, a limited number) are ready for a grad-school education and research even as an undergrad and may benefit more from stronger faculty, facilities, and research. BTW, in Europe, that’s a default undergraduate education, where students are expected to delve deeply in to a specialty.
You really have to be introspective and understand yourself as well as research what different schools offer.
Some kids would do best at a Williams/Amherst.
Others would actually do better at a Cal/UMich.