<p>I noticed this comment on another thread and wondered if anyone could comment on which schools treat kids as athletes and which schools emphasize academics over Div 1 sports. D's sport is swimming....</p>
<p>I don't think you can narrow it down to specific schools, but the fact is that all Division I sports take up an enormous amount of time. Often this interferes with classes, as schedules for meets/games and even practices may not take class schedules into account. Small, LACs which have Div. V sports can work their sports around academics to a large extent. Sports may still take up a lot of time, but the students are not really in the sports "big time", so pressure is less.</p>
<p>Actually, there are D-3 schools that are more intense than D-1 schools. Not all D-1 sports take up an enormous amount of time, though swimming is the most time intensive of all sports as the season starts the instant the student steps onto the campus until February or March, and the coaches usually want the kids to do some workout during the summer as well. The way you can tell is to see what place the teams come in for the NCAA championships in each division. The top D-3 teams like Kenyon, JHU and CMU, Emory are much more time intensive and have faster swimmers usually than schools like, say Duquesne. Having lived in Pittsburgh, I can tell you that Pitt being D-1 had National Swimmers, CMU, even though it is a D-3 school could take Duquesne a D-1 school in swimming. And it will show in the NCAA championship rankings. You can see from the times of the swimmers in those events and how many swimmers teams have going. If you see a school dominating the NCAA championships, you know that they are not going to just be sitting there with excused absences for swim practice.</p>
<p>Rice, Davidson, Colgate- these are a few D1 schools that have rigorous academics and support the student-athletes in their academic work as well as in their sports. DIII is a good way to go for a better chance at a healthy balance. I think the Ivys also support the academics of their athletes, but most of the athletes recruited by the Ivys choose to go there because of the academics, since there are no athletic scholarships.</p>
<p>And if your child is scholarship material time wise for swimming, but in the D-3 circles, and does not have the academic #s for the D-1 school that support the academics, the d-2 route may be the best for such a student. I know two girls getting close to full rides at Gannon (a Catholic college) and Slippery Rock (a state school in PA) for swimming.</p>
<p>You might enjoy reading John Feinstein's The Last Amateurs about Div. I basketball in the patriot league (Colgate, Holy Cross, Lafayette, Lehigh, Bucknell, Army and Navy). You'll get an idea of the intensity in one league, anyway. It was published in 2000.</p>
<p>At a D3 school - the student/athlete participates essentially for the love of their sport - and yes many coaches will work practice around academics as best they can - and many times it is up to the student to make sure they get to practice and to avoid the excuse syndrome - cuz that practice may be at 6am - and there are no athletic scholarships allowed for D3's</p>
<p>D1's yes there usually is $$ - and some D2's tho not all - and some D1's may have scholarship $$'s for one gender only - and the other gender participates again for the love of the sport - this is true especially in swimming as it is not a $$ producing event - such as football can be.</p>
<p>There are many D3 programs that have athletes/programs that could possibly whoop some D1's. Many times the student will carry a lower course load in order to manage - tho still stay in the full-time status situation. There are those scholar/athletes who are able to manage a full load and a varsity level sport at any school - and still come out with close to a 4.0. The students learn good time management if they are an athlete - as they should have in some way prior to going off to college. Being a student/athlete has it's own particular challanges - yet it is managable - it all depends on each individual student.</p>
<p>Usmominuk, best bet is to drill into the specifics with the coaches at the schools your D will apply. D's school (D1), freshman are required to meet once a week with an academic counselor for athletes. They review all work for the week etc., make sure they stay on track. Freshman are also required to attend something like a study hall for a set number of hours each week (six or seven, I cannot remember). If gpa falls under a certain number, they're required to continue the weekly meetings and study hall requirements sophomore year.</p>
<p>Coaching staff also broadcast emails gpas at the end of each semester so the entire team can see where everyone is - team members, and also how their sport did gpa-wise with other sports in the school. </p>
<p>Last, if tutors are desired or needed, the athletic department pays for them. I'm not sure if there's a limit, but D has three lined up this semester - for calculus, organic chem, and physics. She doesn't "need" them yet but wants them on tap just in case, and especially for finals. She has three different academic advisors, including the one for athletes. </p>
<p>I would recommend asking a lot of questions. In D's case, even though there were many, many discussions, emails, and in-person visits prior to start of freshman year, somehow no one ever told her about the mandatory study halls and weekly meetings. It was o.k., except D had calculated out her time, and hadn't accounted for this; she found it difficult to study in the "study hall" environment, so basically she did the majority of her homework outside of it. So this morphed into about eight hours per week that she had not planned...</p>
<p>I'm guessing that all D1 schools will have similar programs, regulations and support avenues. Another way to evaluate is to check out the academic credentials of the coaching staff, and, during in-person meetings, learn something about their college experiences. All of D's coaches have masters with the exception of the strength coach; her primary coach from a D-1 school, graduated with honors in engineering, international wins on her record, and worked all through school. That's the sort of "role model" that works for D.</p>
<p>While D3s don't specifically give out athletic scholarships, the very competitive schools do reach back and come up with very attractive merit and need packages to get students to attend.</p>
<p>USMom, I know, I think, you are in the UK. Have questions for the other athletes lined up for any visits your child will make. I don't know the NCAA rules (no athletes in my family), can she E-mail other student-athletes with questions, I know the coaches contacts are limited.
Last year our high school graduated 2 of the top divers in the state, one male, one female. Both were recruited by Div 1 and Div 3 schools - one went Div 1, the other Div 3. The Div 3 person wanted to contribute to the team, but did not want diving to rule his life, that was his impression of Div 1 - separate living quarters, schedules, friends, only some classes were in conjunction with the main student body. At his Div 3 school, with a good, not great program, he lives in the regular dorm with regular roommates, the swim/dive coach got him a job with the local parks and rec teaching diving to kids - something he had done every summer in high school and truly enjoyed. He is considering a frat. The girl I do not know as well, my understanding is htat she is nationally ranked, but not perhaps Olympic material, I also do not know what her intended major is, the much larger Div 1 school has many more opportunities for majors thatn the small LAC.</p>
<p>A rule of thumb - if you think sports when you hear the name of the school, then sports will come first, most likely. As has been stated there are exceptions in Div 3, but my guess is that at Kenyon and Williams students are student-athletes, in that order.</p>
<p>I believe there is a lot more communication allowed if the contact is initiated by the student. E.g., a prospect can call a current team member.</p>
<p>Although there are a number of books out on athletic scholarships and lists of schools that provide the sport on the NCAA level, it is very difficult to get info on how much scholarship is available for a given sport. Georgetown basketball is supported with full rides. Georgetown swimming and diving don't get a dime. Notre Dame football gets full freight, Notre Dame swimming the last I heard gets one full scholarship that they cut up and distribute. Because the situation can change from year to year, and moment to moment as the scholarships are distributed, you need to talk to the coach directly and ask what is exactly available. Do your homework first by researching the level of skill the team has and if your student is a draw there. If he is, do ask about what money is going to be available. My son found the coaches very honest about that. Many told him what was available and what was already earmarked for some hot prospect, and if he even had a shot at what was left.</p>
<p>There is obviously great variation from school to school on this matter. My daughter is not a recruited athlete but she IS an athlete and in fact, is on a Division I Varsity sports team. Believe me, she is a student first, athlete second. Athletics is an extracurricular for her. She cares more about her academics but has a passion for her sports. She is in a demanding college, Brown, and is getting top grades there. There are no perks or special anythings about being an athlete there. She has to juggle stuff but she always has juggled her academics and heavy EC commitments. There are alot of hours devoted to just this one sport she does there from Sept. through March. Right now she also is going away every weekend for her sport. There is no special treatment or situations. I don't think her sport is treated any differently than some other EC endeavor on campus though there are clearly more hours involved than some activities (not all, because theater productions also are heavy time commitments). She even arranged her class schedule to make it possible to travel two mornings a week to practices out of state where they leave at 6:30 AM. I feel certain if something academic arises and she cannot make something, it would be fine.<br>
Susan</p>
<p>I'll have to echo cangel as well. DD (hs senior) is a swimmer and diver and the difference between D1 and D3 is sometimes a blurry line as far as times, practices and quality and intensity of program. Yes, there are schools where you are a student first then athlete and then there are the programs where you are there as an athlete. The poster who said look to the NCAA championships for the past few years will give you a clear idea of which schools want what. As that many of the college coaches are also private club coaches, their reputations are well-known throughout their USA Swim And USA Dive region. The strongest regions, the ones with the fastest times and highest scores for dives translates to the D1 and D3 schools as well. For example, USC dive coach is also Trojan dive coach (USA Dive club coach). Carolina coach is a USA Dive coach also. So from traveling to USA Swim/Dive meets a sense of what the coach expects can be gained. And yes, some D3 schools are swim powerhouses as are some elite private universities.</p>
<p>DD has been interviewed by various coaches and visited with them and some made it clear that her intended major would not work with her necessary practice schedule and others were fine with it. Really depends on the coach/program rather than the school itself. Maybe some athletic programs are not as intense even though they maybe at the same school. Again, depends on the sport and respective coach.</p>
<p>Hope that helps.</p>
<p>Kat</p>
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<p>Although there are a number of books out on athletic scholarships and lists of schools that provide the sport on the NCAA level, it is very difficult to get info on how much scholarship is available for a given sport. </p>
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<p>I was going to write that the NCAA web site lists the scholarship limits (the max) by sport ... which I believe is true ... but knowing those limits probably usually provides little useful information for a couple reasons.</p>
<p>First, a school may choose to support a sport or not ... wrestling scholarships are allowed ... but few schools even have wrestling teams and those that do probably give differing numbers of scholarships.</p>
<p>Second, each school will decide how to stay in Title IX compliance in their own way ... and an individuals sport's schoalarship decisions are part of a bigger plan for the school. For example, any school with football probably has less scholarships for males playing sports like tennis or track and field.</p>
<p>There are books that do list the limits by sports, but as you say, 3togo, that does not mean the school goes by that number. Also, some coaches split up the awards so they can give to more athletes. They also may have someone already in mind for some of the awards. What is important, above all, is what is available for YOU.</p>
<p>I think the larger issue here is the impact of intercollegiate athletics on colleges and universities. One definative scholarly work on this is "The Game of Life" by Bowen and Shulman. Their conclusions are startling and contradict many held beliefs. I believe that one of the authors was Princeton's Prexy at one time.</p>
<p>While the do not sugar coat the hypocracies of Div 1 athletics they contend that the adverse impact on smaller Div 3 colleges may be even greater. How so? I graduated from Ohio State, a big Div 1 university. Ohio State fields teams in 30 sports involving approximately 1000 students. That is less than 3% of the undergraduate student body. In addition, the revenues from football and basketball help subsidize the rest of the interscholastic athletic program. Overall, the graduation rate of these athletes is slighly HIGHER that the overall student body and more than two thirds of these athletes have HS records comparable to the overall student body. Obviously there is a different story with the football, basketball and hockey recruits. Yes hockey too.</p>
<p>Now look at a college such as Williams. It fields 31 intercollegiate teams, one more than Ohio State, involving about 750 students, or about 35% of the student body. Though it does not offer athletic scholarships, Williams does recruit athletes for it teams. The Bowen and Shulman book also has data on over 90,000 students showing that in almost all sports(I think fencing and golf were the exceptions) the academic quality of student athletes was inferior to the overall student body. The same held true for class standing and graduation rates. And because they cannot offer athletic scholarship the gaps in SAT scores between athletes and non-athletes are higher in some sports, particularly hockey and wrestling, than at Div 1 universities.</p>
<p>So one of their conclusions is that the elite colleges and univerisities are more adversely impacted by intercollegiate athletics than large Div 1 universities are. I knew of only three athletes in my classes at OSU, Mike Good a golfer, Keith Swearingen a baseball player and Dave Foley a football player who played in the NFL for many years and was a MechEngineer. There were undoubtedly a number of others in my lecture classes, I just wasn't aware of them. Mike, Dave and Keith were all good students so they had absolutely no adverse impact on my academics. In fact Mike was in the combined BS/MS program.</p>
<p>I agree Originaloog. That is an issue that Dartmouth and Columbia have been wrestling with. The ivy league has its roots as an athletic league. Which means really that it is the sports that in a sense define them as we refer to them by their sports handle. Schools like Cornell and Penn are large enough to support full sports rosters, and HPY get cream of the crop in every discipline. But Dartmouth has been struggling mightily with its sports identity. It tried to get rid of its swim team a few years ago, and I think there are many who would like to get rid of NCAA sports entirely. Let Syracuse take its spot in the Ivy League. That would shake things up a bit. So, yes, the smaller schools can be greatly impacted by the sports teams because of the sheer numbers. </p>
<p>However, for students looking for a school where they can enjoy a sport, possibly get some money for it, and yet not get in the way of academics, the best way to go, is to look at the team rankings within the NCAA, and then call about scholarship info. Ivy sports that are under the auspices of NCAA are tough on the schedule. Even the lowest rated ivy team is playing against Cornell and Harvard, and they get creamed. Club teams are the other way to go, but there is no money in them, and the quality of those teams really vary from school to school. S played on a club team recreationally for a secondary sport, and though he had the athletic prowress, the time commitment was too much with a primary sport. But there are schools where it would have been less demanding and he would have been able to do this. And there are club teams in the big 10 that would have rivaled his NCAA team. The variance is so great, that you do have to check each school individually. In fact, S visited every single coach at the schools where he applied to see how the team fit into the university infrastructure and how the students liked being student athletes. That was the most important issue, and though I was a bit put back at the time, after seeing his time commitment to the sport and team, it made sense. It affected schedules, majors, other ECs, where he lived, who he spent his time with. And this was at a D-3 school that revered the sport, and could roundly whip most of the D-1 schools in its area.</p>
<p>How schools handle sports even in D1 varies a lot. I know that at Tulane even the football players are not housed separately and there are no gut majors. You cannot get a degree in PE while taking Golf and AIDS Awareness and they still have one of the highest graduation rates of any D1 program in the country. OK they may not be a football powerhouse but they get to a bowl game once in a while and even went undefeated 5 or 6 years ago.</p>