Ability to Pay and other trends in admissions

Parents Forum
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<p>No, I don’t live in the world of BigLaw (though one of my best friends is in that world, albeit in Chicago not NY, so that probably doesn’t count). </p>

<p>It’s long been evident that the law profession is way behind the times in terms of the advancement of women, and hmom and zmom’s comments help confirm it. </p>

<p>The rest of the business world, and the creative class, has moved well beyond. Part-time, telecommuting, job-shares, starting consulting businesses, etc. is run of the mill and not even notable anymore. People are free to figure out what work / life balance works for them and plan accordingly. People are free to live wherever they like – I could do what I do from the middle of Montana if that so suited me – knowledge work just requires my brain and an internet connection. </p>

<p>That’s the future of knowledge work – not this dated, navy-blue-suit-with-floppy-tie, hmmm-should-we-promote-the-women-oh-noes-they-might-have-babies-and-then-what world. Haven’t these people read Free Agent Nation or Malcolm Gladwell or Wired or Free Company or any of the other people / books / ideas that are helping shape the world of work for tomorrow? These people are still stuck on Top 10 schools and nothing else? Then they’re laughable. Behind the times. No matter if they’re in Manhattan.</p>

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<p>I am with you, and more importantly to me, so is my son. He will be sincerely thrilled to attend any of the schools to which he has been admitted. No sour faces here at all.</p>

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<p>Is there some responsibility to choose options that include something affordable? I think there is and I don’t think it’s particularly hard. We saw several places that my D would be thrilled to attend. In fact, making the actual commitment could be the big difficulty.
It’s our responsibility, as her parents, to be the primary support of her education and we will do that to the best of our ability (since selling a kidney isn’t currently legal!). If someone wants to give her money,(which has already happened), we’ll take it gratefully but never expect any.</p>

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Exactly. Hope, yes, but expect, no. We know we can afford to send him to UMass if nothing else pans out. If something else pans out (and we think it probably will), then great.</p>

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<p>No matter who is “right” I see a bigger squeeze coming. Our state schools (Washington State) have requested a 14% tuition hike for next year. Yikes! The state legislature is actively considering having state employees take a monthly furlough day (ie, one working day a month that one is not paid) for next year. State employees are also to pay more for health insurance. DH is a state employee. How are we supposed to pay more with less coming in the door?</p>

<p>This doesn’t have anything to do with Ivy vs. State flagship. It has to do changing times. States are broke. Health and education expenses are rising. It’s scary.</p>

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<p>Hm. I said that many women are professionals. I thought that included doctors, lawyers and Indian chiefs (no ethnic slur intended), so yes, I do see many women following these pursuits. I simply stated that I didn’t see many women in the corporate world raising children because that world tends to be less flexible, than say, private practice.</p>

<p>Olymom has it right, which is why I think it is imperative that we don’t snipe at each other but congratulate each other on all our strategies to educate our children, insure them and try to keep the economy flowing enough that they have some hope of future employment.</p>

<p>I would not like to see the major entitle programs, like social security, be disbanded because I am kind of counting on that to be there in ten years.</p>

<p>So I don’t object to being called socialist either.</p>

<p>However, I don’t see the fact that two lovely schools chose to give my kids generous FA as following that model at all. These are private colleges exercising their own value systems and spending their own funds as they choose. Nothing to burden tax payers at all.</p>

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<p>IMO, America is the land of opportunity.
I’ve had two kids attend schools of their dreams almost entirely on the generosity of the schools’ alums.
I have no interest in the unfairness of some folks making only $100,000 while others are making $300,000, on whatever grounds. Poor, poor dears.<br>
I’ve never warmed up to education as an economic decision, at least at the elites. Not to be Zen here, but how about being around smart students and professors as the goal in itself?
Another story of course for people trying to become medical technologists, nurses, law enforcement professionals. etc. Those folks don’t appear on these threads very often.</p>

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<p>Smart professors are all over the place. There are fewer smart students (from my observations) at lower-ranked schools. I’ve had a root canal and a few crowns done and in progress and I’m very happy to have the people with the skills to take away a lot of my pain.</p>

<p>I work in a place where everyone is smart - it’s pretty amazing. Perhaps school can be like that too. If you have the money and the smarts and the organization.</p>

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<p>I agree on the smarts and the organization. The money may be a negative. At least as an applicant at the elites- the freight is considerable otherwise.</p>

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<p>Even if you have the money, does your kid really want to spend it?</p>

<p>As a parent, would the kid be better off if you gave them $120K in cash after they finish their state school education?</p>

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<p>LOL- It looks like this thread is starting to circle around and repeat the same points.</p>

<p>We happen to be a family that values education and are willing to pay for it, if necessary. Older s does occasionally look back and wonder if he should have gone to school at one of the large and well respected state schools that made him a great financial offer back in 2003-4, or to our flagship tech school that would have been extremely inexpensive for him to attend. Of course we will neve know how things would have turned out for him had he made those choices and pocketed the $$ we spent on his college education, but he loved, LOVED his college (a true perfect fit), the education he got, the friends he made, and the way he blossomed in a small school environment. I don’t regret the choice he or we made (only that perhaps if he hadnt applied ED- maybe he would have had more merit $$ offered-- who knows). Besides, we lost a ton of $$ in the stock market these past few years. I figure if that money had been invested in the market rather than in his education, a chunk would have been flushed down the toilet. Yes, I know the market is recovering (thank heavens) but we still have no regrets that we invested in ours sons personal growth and education the way we did. IMO, it was worth every penny.</p>

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For a full-pay family, this argument is compelling–which may explain why there are more upper-middle-class families than you might expect represented at state U’s. For a lower-middle-class family, the argument is less compelling, because there may be little or no difference in bottom line between state U’s and private colleges. We don’t have that $120K in cash, no matter how you slice it. It’s either coming out of FA or it’s not coming at all.</p>

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<p>It’s better to spend $120K on education. $120K could get you 2 decent cars and they are worthless in 3-5 years.</p>

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<p>Except as a full-pay parent, those aren’t the options on the table. It’s not “here’s $200K of my money; you can spend it all at an elite school or spend $80K at the state school and keep the remaining $120K.” It’s “we fund your education. If it so turns out that the state school is the best choice for you, it’s fully funded. If it so turns out that the elite school is the best choice for you, it’s fully funded.” It is not their money; it is mine.</p>

<p>My S wears glasses; my D wears contacts, which cost more (let’s say it’s double the cost over a year). I didn’t give both of them the money for contacts and then S got to keep the difference for choosing glasses; that would be weird. It would be just as weird if I had one go to a state school and one went to an elite school and I gave the state-school kid the difference.</p>

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<p>^ $120k would get you much more than 2 decent cars…lol</p>

<p>Interesting point though BC eagle…State school and $120k after graduation, or a better school…is it worth the difference?</p>

<p>For example, Umass plus $120k or a BU or Northeastern? But I assume most full pay parents wouldn’t be giving the $120k to their kid after graduation…but for those going on to grad school, that sure would be nice.</p>

<p>I expect to be full pay and live in RI where state school is not that great…so it looks like I will be paying $35k minimum for a state school like Uconn or $50k for most privates.</p>

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<p>$120K could get you more than 2 decent cars. And in a few years it might be able to buy a whole bunch more if China continues to export deflation. With some talent, the $120K could be turned into $240K in a few years.</p>

<p>At any rate, it could certainly fund grad school.</p>

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<p>That is just a perspective. Parents can certainly budget $200,000 and give them the
remainder when they graduate.</p>

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<p>We saved $200K per kid. That may be a foreign concept for many parents but it does happen.</p>

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<p>Why would that be weird? I like BC eagle have planned $200k for each of my kids…maybe they ought to choose how they want that $200k…Hmmm</p>

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I think that’s awesome and it makes your kids likely to pay it forward someday.</p>

<p>We always tell our kids that if someone gives you a dollar or a donut in your time of need, down the road when you are able, make sure you give a dollar fifty or a donut and coffee to the next person in need. I think that’s incredibly important in all aspects of life.</p>

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<p>It would be weird because I’m incenting my kid to go to a cheaper school, and since I"m full pay, I have no need to do that. </p>

<p>My kids are both looking at unis and LAC’s that are in the top 40 range. I haven’t a clue what the ultimate differential will be in terms of where they wind up. I’m not going to say to one kid, though, “You chose a school that winds up being $40K and your brother chose one that winds up being $45K. Here, here’s an extra $5K to make up the difference.”</p>

<p>If one kid took ballet and the other took trombone, and ballet cost more, I didn’t give trombone-kid more money to even it out. It’s not about being even; it’s about funding everyone to the best of my ability. S went to the CTD program at Northwestern for 5 summers; D only went once. I didn’t give her the difference because she did something else with her summers. This money is not <em>owed</em> to them. It is my honor and pleasure to <em>fund</em> things, but they needn’t be <em>equal</em>, as long as they are fair. </p>

<p>My H is one of 3 children. One went to an expensive, private U and from there went on to the work world. One went to a relatively inexpensive state U and from there went on to the work world. H went to an expensive, private U and then on to medical school. His parents were well-to-do enough to fund medical school (which was wonderful), but that didn’t mean that they then owed his sisters the equivalent of 4 years medical school tuition just because they spent that on him. They would have funded med school or law school or grad school for either of the sisters; it just so happened that neither of them were interested. But the sisters weren’t owed med school many any more than H was “owed” what his parents spent on his sisters’ weddings. This is a really odd sense of entitlement, IMO. If one of my kids goes to grad school and the other doesn’t, I’m not gifting the other kid the difference. That’s weird.</p>

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<p>My husband and I have pondered this question repeatedly during the application process. We do value a quality education and have spent over $100k for son’s private school education thus far. It was worth it to us for many, many reasons. In so far as college goes, some of those reasons still apply, some don’t.</p>

<p>We haven’t reach a decision yet because we are waiting to see where he gets in (he has cast a wide net in terms of type of colleges) and whether he has a strong opinion once the acceptances are in.</p>

<p>There are many pros and cons to this issue. Some are:</p>

<p>1)If we spend $200k+ on UG, are we going to be willing to spend even more for grad school (or medical or law school)? Or is it better to spend less on UG and fully fund him through Grad school (and we feel really strongly that it’s important to obtain a graduate level degree). We could get him through medical school debt-free by sending him free to the State U now. </p>

<p>2) He’s been at very small school K-12, would he not benefit from being at one of the state flagships and being exposed to a more diverse population of kids? Or would the experience be overwhelming to him?</p>

<p>3) He could easily be a 4.0 kid at the state U and have an easier time of getting in to law, med or grad school vs. struggling at a ‘harder’ school. On the other hand, would that mean he’s not getting a top notch education. I don’t know. He has applied to our State U honors program but, frankly, it’s harder to get in there than it is Harvard, so I’m not holding my breathe.</p>

<p>4) At our private school, you almost never hear a parent say it wasn’t worth the $100k to send their child there but I heard this all the time from people who have sent their kids off to $200k schools at full-pay. All the time. I’m amazed at the number of people who send their kids off to $50 yr colleges and then later say they didn’t think it was worth the money.</p>

<p>5) If your kid is going to live in state after college, the contacts one makes at an in-state school are a heck of a lot more valuable than the contacts they will make at a school located out of state, even if it is Harvard (unless you live in the Northeast).</p>

<p>6) Virtually everyone we know in the top 5% income bracket went to their state school (doesn’t matter what the state was). I don’t see a huge economic value in going to a more expensive school just for the sake of going to a more expensive school (with the exception of a few career fields). Economic success is much more about individual drive than where you attended college.</p>

<p>I could go on and on. It is a real dilemma, even when you can well afford to be full-pay. Most of the families are my son’s school are very well off and yet most of them send their kids to a state school. </p>

<p>In a perfect world, one school would stand out as a ‘perfect fit’ for our son and then it would be much easier decision. As of now, he doesn’t appear to be dying to go to any one school (although he would like to go to his #1 choice school), so that makes it even more difficult.</p>

<p>BTW- we would never give son the left-over college money to buy a new car, we’re not the type of people to spend $50k on a car - it’s a depreciable asset and not worth it. We would, however, like to be able to help him buy his first house and/or start a business (if that is the route he chooses to go). We planned on and saved for a $200k college education, so there is no reason not to give him the money - whether it is for school or something else worthwhile.</p>