Absolute disgrace

College Confidential Community
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So do I. But you don't see me throwing rocks at embassies. Look, like purrli said, we don't need more idiotic violence. The kind of vehemence that I sense out of you and jrcho is exactly what I think will cause the Japanese to get even more reluctant to be more open to change.

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<p>Excuse me, sir, did I throw rocks at embassies? What's the percentage of Chinese people that actually threw rocks at embassies? On the other hand, if the Germans started twisting stories about Holocaust in their textbooks tomorrow, I wouldn't be surprised to see some Jews throwing rocks at their embassies! Most people never throw rocks at embassies in their entire life; you don't need to tell us you didn't; it's nothing special and doesn't make you a better person. </p>

<p>By the way, the Chinese and Koreans are upset because the Japanese government isn't open to change, not the other way around. You think Japan would suddenly become honest about it when all others just go quiet?? I wish it's that easy!</p>

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<p>I didn't mean to attack his arrogance. It was more of a "kill two birds with one stone" thing because I disagreed with what he said AND how he said it.</p>

<p>I think that everyone SHOULD definitely forgive...I mean, how else do you make peace in the world? But, everyone should understand why it is harder for some then others. That doesn't make the people who have already forgiven the past better, but they are just different. Especially for those people who have lost loved ones at the hands of other people. If you can't even begin to understand why it might be difficult...then you are causing just as much of a problem as those who cannot forgive. And you're being ignorant.</p>

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I wouldn't be surprised to see some Jews throwing rocks at their embassies!

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<p>Just like Israelis throw rocks at Palestinians. I don't condone it. </p>

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Most people never throw rocks at embassies in their entire life; you don't need to tell us you didn't; it's nothing special and doesn't make you a better person.

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<p>I'm sorry, but I think that the fact that I've never resorted to mob violence to get my point across DOES make me a better person. Lynch mobs are the lowest of the low, if you ask me. But I guess I'm just an arrogant arse.</p>

<p>And most haven't, but I sure didn't see any protest against it...

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You think Japan would suddenly become honest about it when all others just go quiet??

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<p>I never said to be quiet. I'm not quiet here at all. I'm saying not to be violent in your words and actions. There's a difference.</p>

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<p>UCLAri, let's discuss the post I made (about 30 replies back) that starts with:</p>

<p>"Good points. I will just add a few comments"</p>

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<p>Quote:
Japan actually had a fair amount of direct contact with China, and did have its own indigenous culture. While the effect of China and Korea on Japan was great, they're not a carbon copy of the mainland. Hell, they're as much Western today as they are Chinese.</p>

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Right, I know that too. However, Japan did not "build the South Korea of today". You agree with that right?

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<p>Well, if you ask me, the most decisive factor in building the South Korea and Japan of today was the US AND the countries themselves. But I think democracy and capitalism are good, so don't ask me.</p>

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but telling the Japanese they can't honor their dead is absurd.</p>

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Nobody is saying that they can't. Honouring war criminals is what angers people. They can whatever the f*** they want. However, morally, I do not think this is right. Do Germans honour Hitler, and Italians honour Musolini??

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<p>I agree, which is why I say move Tojo and the other wingnuts bodies out of Yasukuni. But I somehow feel that it wouldn't be enough. That's just me. </p>

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Again, these are international problems, not Japanese problems.</p>

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True, and a good point too. But do the Spanish actually neglect the genocide and call it an "incident" too?

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<p>I've heard conflicting stories. I've heard it's not even brought up. </p>

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Yeah, China has been pretty equally barbaric things. However, Japan is supposedly a first-world country, everybody acknowledges this, and it is ridiculous that their actions are being compared to those of China, which isn't even a democratic nation.

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<p>I don't think that we should apologize for less-developed nations. </p>

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Obviously, it doesn't excuse China. Anyhow, distortion of history is still incorrect. I know history is flexible and can be interpreted vote ways, but any rational person would agree that approx. 300,000 deaths = a massacre or a rape, not an incident.

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<p>Don't jump down my throat for this, but I don't think ANY country portrays its own crimes well enough. Look at how the US discusses Cambodia in its schools (just bombings.) We probably killed more in Cambodia than the Japanese did in Nanking, and yet we take the moral high ground? Bah.</p>

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As for #4, you've convinced me.

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<p>Woot.</p>

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I agree, which is why I say move Tojo and the other wingnuts bodies out of Yasukuni. But I somehow feel that it wouldn't be enough. That's just me.

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<p>Well, it's the shrine visit the had angered the neighbors the most lately, especially when it felt like the more you told their PM not to, the more eager he would repeat just to p*ssed you off. LOL! Honoring war criminals, in Yasuhuni, which, to my knowledge, is not just a regular shrine but holds a speacial place in Japan (correct me if I am wrong), is seen as more obnoxious than anything.</p>

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</p>

<p>Well, if you ask me, the most decisive factor in building the South Korea and Japan of today was the US AND the countries themselves. But I think democracy and capitalism are good, so don't ask me.

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<p>So I guess you do agree with me on that issue in a way?
Arguably, if anybody "built the South Korea of today", it wasn't Japan, it was the US, as you implied. Personally, I think there were SOME good things that Koreans got out of Japanese occupation; however, the bad things of the occupation FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR exceed the good.</p>

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<p>UCLAri, if you honestly do actually think there is a truth behind the saying that "Japan rebuilt Korea today," you must be heavily brain-washed by the far-right Japanese.</p>

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<p>chochocho,</p>

<p>If you honestly do actually think I said that, you must not be reading my posts.</p>

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<p>The "most decisive" factor were the United States and the countries themselves. However, you never specified if Japanese built the South Korea today.</p>

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<p>Well, there is no doubt that the Japanese economy's performance was key in allowing the "tigers" to perform.</p>

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<p>So...?
I am sure the Japanese stock markets took a dump with the collapse of the internet stocks, but that does not mean that "the US was key in destroying Japan of today".</p>

<p>Yes or no: Did "Japan build the South Korea of today" ??</p>

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<p>jrcho,</p>

<p>Since I've already answered you, I don't think I have to answer you for the 5th time. But, I'll do it again.</p>

<p>Japan was very influential in the building of the tiger economies. Anyone who doesn't believe so is fooling themselves. In fact, the Korean economic model is largely Japanese in nature. However, does that mean that "Japan built the South Korea of today?" Yes and no. The statement itself is vague, and relies on that vagueness to remain in a grey territory where it can stay away from scrutiny either way.</p>

<p>You seem to forget, however, that Japan and Korea have had relations since the cessation of hostilities during the Second World War. It was during that period of time where Japan was most decisive in South Korea's development. I hardly believe that Japan was as decisive as the US, but to discount its positive effect on the South Korean economy is absurd. Rarely is it possible to point to a specific economy and say that factor X, and factor X alone is the single reason for its growth. </p>

<p>Anyway, gimme a break. It's the words of a comic book that sold 360,000 copies (that's a runaway best seller? In a country with 100 million people, 360,000 is a runaway best seller? What did I miss?). Of course it's going to be idiotic. The artist is an idiot, not an economist.</p>

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<p>In either case, if you really want to get down to why South Korea is where it's at today, I'd say it's a combination of the following (and more):</p>

<ul>
<li> Western influence (most important) bringing industrialism and technological advances</li>
<li> The US keeping South Korea out of the hands of the Kim regime (VERY DECISIVE)</li>
<li> Having a stable trading partner in the region (Japan, later China as well)</li>
<li> Security thanks to the US-Korea security agreement</li>
<li> Well-educated population</li>
<li> Democratic reforms, as of late</li>
<li> Need for lower cost goods after Japan became the land of high-cost goods</li>
<li> Competition via Japan and recently China
...and more factors.</li>
</ul>

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<p>Yeah, obviously it's not going to be cut and dry, I guess I screwed up wording the question.</p>

<p>Countries do not exist in isolation and neighboring countries usually have intertwining relationships.</p>

<p>The title of the NYTimes article referred to it as bestseller, so I just used that term.</p>

<p>Also, I'm not sure but the quote might be in reference to the fact that Japanese occupation did Korea good.
No, it's not like "every kid has this comic", but I believe the kids who will read these kind of things will grow up thinking that Korea owes its success entirely to Japan (sadly some of my Japanese friends believe so). Partially, I think they do; however, the comic book is idiotic, and I hope nobody takes it seriously.</p>

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<p>jrcho,</p>

<p>Every country thinks the world owes it everything. C'mon, you don't think Americans think Korea owes it everything? I'll introduce you to some Americans who think that the whole world belongs to North America.</p>

<p>Just read what Ann Coulter has to say. In fact, I'll quote her. She said, "Canada exists because America allows it to." This woman sold millions of her books. Not like the hacks in the NY Times article who have maybe grossed a million. She has sold MILLIONS.</p>

<p>And I don't think everyone who bought the manga buys the argument. Even if they all do, that's at MOST 1% of Japan's population. Not that frightening, if you ask me. </p>

<p>BTW, I live in a small conservative community, and we're getting ready to have a Korea-Japan exchange in December. Now, I think the Japanese are cruel for bringing the poor kankoku-jin over in the freezing Japanese winter (I think I should get paid extra to deal with the weather in this pit), but is that the face of a people who hates Korea? In fact, I was told two nights ago, verbatim, "We believe that we need to face the past and use exchanges like this to go peacefully into the future. Korea and China are part of that future. Peace is the future, not war."</p>

<p>Now tell me that Americans would use that kind of rhetoric.</p>

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<p>If you ask me, most of the Japanese are pretty torn about their country. I have met maybe three or four young Japanese who see their nation in half a positive light as Americans usually do. Most say, "I'm proud of being Japanese, and proud of the cultural heritage, but I couldn't care less about the political aspects."</p>

<p>I really don't think that Korea should worry as much about Japan as it does. Besides, I met some JDF the other day, and let me let you in on a little secret: I could have whooped their butts. And I'm not a big guy. </p>

<p>The Korean military would so totally win. Trust me.</p>

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<p>That's good to hear. Thanks for clarifying</p>

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<p>UCLAri,</p>

<p>I think when people read the statement "Japan built the Korea of today" in that comic book, it's pretty obvious what the author meant. He's not referring to some indirect influence but direct contribution like what the US did to Europe through Marshall Plan or to Japan. It's clear the author was using it as part of his racist theme that "Korea is nothing bascially and if there is, it's from Japan" (in another passage, the same book states "there is nothing at all in Korean culture to be proud of"). There's no need to dance around with the little theory how Japan's economy had impacted its neighboring countries. </p>

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[quote]
Every country thinks the world owes it everything. C'mon, you don't think Americans think Korea owes it everything? I'll introduce you to some Americans who think that the whole world belongs to North America.</p>

<p>Just read what Ann Coulter has to say. In fact, I'll quote her. She said, "Canada exists because America allows it to." This woman sold millions of her books. Not like the hacks in the NY Times article who have maybe grossed a million. She has sold MILLIONS.

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<p>Not every country thinks the world owes it everything. Not the Chinese first of all. The Chinese do take pride for being the inventor of printing/gun powder or having the characters borrowed by Korea/Japan but that's hardly on the same page as how the ring-winged Japanese think of themselves "building Korea of today". </p>

<p>Ann Coulter's books are not about "Canada exists because America allows it to" or any kind of racist theme. Her books were aimed to bash social and political liberalism. That's why so many were sold because we have lots of conservatives. By the way, is that written in one of her books or just a slip out of her mouth once anyway (because Canada is socially and politically liberal)? I am sure if there were racists comments like "Canada exists because America allows it" or "there is nothing at all xyz culture to be proud of" all over her books and her books were all about demeaning other countries and cultures, she would be lucky to sell thousands. And it would have drawn criticism from all over regardless of how the sales goes. However, according to the NY Times article, the two comic books "have drawn little criticism from public officials, intellectuals or the mainstream news media". I think you were making quite a stretch to think Ann Coulter's books are analogous to the two comic books.</p>

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<p>what is an absolute disgrace is the "ethnic cleansing" occurring in darfur right now</p>