Academic admits going away?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Texas A&M University
21

@AggieMomAgain interesting to see where Top kids are going! Bright kids, for sure!

At our school (suburban, highly competitive, class just shy of 800), our Top Ten are going to:
1 Harvard
1 Yale
1 Rice
7 UT Austin

I’m sure I’ll catch flack for my response, but here’s my opinion. TAMU needs to be more competitive, bump up automatic admission to 6%, like UT.
The top kids aren’t choosing A&M, because the reputation is ‘easy’, or ‘easier’ to get into. Common fact that if kids don’t get in, they go to Blinn, and can transfer in, sometimes with a 2.5. Sorry, but that is embarrassing and quite shocking. And the many pathways to get in-TEAM, TEAB, Blinn-Bryan, RELLIS, Gateway, on & on…too many. I can’t keep up with all the acronyms.

If we want our brightest students to stay in Texas, we need to have State schools competitive enough to keep them here.
UT system has done a fab job of building up their CAP schools-UTD, UTSA, UTPB, UTRGV, etc. Students go to those schools…and stay.
The A&M system schools-Tarleton, CC, Galveston, West Texas, Texarkana, McAllen-are stepping stones, temporary. A&M needs to make their system schools stronger, stand alone, solid 4 year schools.

We all have different perspectives on this subject, but I think A&M needs to tighten admissions even more and enroll fewer, making TAMU truly a state flagship school, on even playing field with Texas.

22

I do have somewhat a different perspective. I think they should do away with all ALL auto admits and do a comprehensive admit process. In our family’s case, My three kids went to a competitive HS in north Houston. The top 20% have fabulous grades, etc…Here’s my rub: my son was admitted as a TEAB student with great grades and would not be admitted this past year without Blinn. If anyone is involved with A&Ms engineering program knows getting in is only the 1st step. He worked his tail end off and had a 4.0 GPA for his 1st year. For my family, I appreciate that the “less” smart kids get a chance. He did all the right stuff in HS just like all of our kids. I’m glad A&M is DIFFERENT or “easier to get in” because this kid got a chance and he is excelling and will get his 1st choice major in Aerospace. It’s really not how one gets there, it’s whether you can do the work. I also think TEXAS residents should get an extra edge for state schools acceptances. (My other Blinn student is just doing fine as a practicing RN in Texas).

23

Interesting. I am thrilled A&M is doing away with academic admit and like others would love to see Texas move away from auto admit altogether too.

My holistic review, full C-Stat admit, kid just finished her first year with a 3.5 gpa, involved in campus activities etc. Clearly capable of thriving at A&M. She has a friend from a neighboring ISD, who was admitted as an auto admit, who will not be returning in the fall due to poor academic performance (this is not the only example of auto and academic admits who wash out that we, personally, know of…). IMO, gpa and test scores are only a small fraction of the measure of potential collegiate success. My high performing, but not auto/academic admit caliber older kiddo skipped applying to any Texas school altogether because she didn’t feel she would be given a fair opportunity. She received admissions offers from every school she applied to, some higher ranked than A&M and UT, many offers with merit. She is entering her senior year at Marquette University, clearly capable of succeeding at a university of equal caliber as A&M.

I have always felt it was sad that Texas is losing a fair number of bright, capable, students due to it’s admissions policies. Once those kids are gone they rarely return.

24

I think the group that probably struggles the most are the top 10% kids. Some of these come from very weak schools that don’t prepare them at all. No test score requirements to go along with the ranking. I’m surprised A&M isn’t moving to top 6% or whatever UT is at.

25

Suggesting that the group that must surely struggle more than all of the others, because, they spent four years out-performing classmates in AP/honors/pre-AP classes, in state required classes, and meeting not one, not some but all of the State of Texas Uniform Admissions standards for (at the very least) the “Distinguished” level of achievement (which also means that they met, at a minimum, the State’s benchmarks for “college readiness” on the SAT/ACT), perpetuates an myth that has long been debunked.

The fact of the matter is that “competitive school” and “very weak schools” are distasteful (IMO) code phrases that are indicative of slights towards lower socioeconomic classes, and a demand for more entitlements and advantages for the already advantaged. It has been demonstrated, many, many times, that the Top 10% are no less college ready than any other so-called ‘tier’ of applicant or student. Texas students who attend school in less wealthy districts, must still meet the same requirements of performance as students from more, and even far more wealthy districts. Further, they have to do a lot more, with a whole lot less. They are not “less prepared” because they had to persevere in less advantaged circumstances. Hard research indicates that the truest and best indicator of college success is high school GPA-- performance over the long haul.

What’s also true is that the biggest barrier to college success for economically challenged, first generation, and minority students is college financing-- actually being able to afford persistent matriculation, and access to resources.

In case you can’t tell, this is a huge pet peeve of mine. I have no issue with whether or not anyone supports or objects to the “Top 10%” rule as a State law. I do, however, take issue at the persistent denigrating of students who worked hard, sometimes in less than ideal circumstances, and performed well over four years. Take issue with the law, or the State of Texas Legislature, but please stop trying to diminish the accomplishments of hard working, and high performing students because their parents don’t reside on the ‘acceptable’ side of the tracks, that makes their achievements legitimate enough for naysayers. :neutral:

26

@rosegeo Your speculation is not fact. There is very little difference between the stats of the auto admit and the holistic admits. Take a look for yourself.

27

I’m actually all for giving kids that outperformed their schools a chance. I agree, economic factors are huge and I appreciate that. I’m sorry that my comments offended you, that was obviously not my intent. I did not suggest that they get rid of the auto admit for the top performers. Just that if they want to do more holistic, I’m surprised they didn’t reduce the numbers. Again, I apologize. I have had experience with some kids who have done very well in their high schools but developed no study skills because very little was expected of them. Took lots of ap classes but never passed the exams because the material wasn’t actually covered. In these instances it turned out that the students were not ready for college when they went. But I shouldn’t have projected a few experiences to a larger population.

28

@rosegeo, I didn’t mean to come off as so stand-offish either. No apologies are necessary, I just see the 'Top 10%" myth perpetuated so often, that I feel the need to rail against it. :smile:

29

On the Top 10% rule, and Academic Admit category, I have a perspective from both sides.

Many, many years ago, in the late 70’s, I was the Salutatorian in a very poor performing, mostly low income, mostly minority HS in a middle sized town in a Southern state. I took every Science and Math class that was offered in my HS, (there were NO AP classes back then), the Valedictorian took Business and typing classes. She went to a local secretarial school, I went Out of State to another Southern state, to one of the top 2 flagship schools in that state. I had a decent ACT of 26 and would still be within the admitted group at that University. And that was taking the test once completely without any preparation. I couldn’t afford to take the test more than once.

NO ONE else from my class of ~250 went to a 4 year top level school. One guy in the Top 10 went to a local CC. I can’t imagine that the Top 10% of students in my class were prepared for college, as I wasn’t prepared for the rigor of my University. Some of the “Top 10” were not even on the Honor Roll, which started at 3.0.

I had never had to study in HS, nothing much was expected of students at my school. Good teachers didn’t stay long and back then, teachers only had to have an Associates degree to teach. My Bio 2 class was a book and a table for 4 students (only 3 of us graduated) in a Freshman Bio 1 class taught by one of the new teachers with an Associates degree, so basically we taught ourselves. The book was over the teachers head, he didn’t understand basic Mendelian genetics. But I needed a science class for my Senior year. There was no Math class for our Senior year. And for our Jr year Chemistry class, there weren’t enough books for us to have one to take home to study, so we could only use the textbooks in the class!

My qualifications for college looked good on paper, but I wasn’t ready for the rigor and pace of University classes. I had full financial aid, so I also had ~20 Work Study hours per week (and I cleaned a professor’s house for extra cash). It was a struggle to learn how to effectively manage my time. Some of my scholarships required a certain gpa and I am so grateful that this was back in the day of generous drops and repeats. I had a very hard time with the stress of failing when I had never failed before. But I eventually figured out how to study and even though it took me 5 years to earn all of my credits, I graduated in the top third of my college class with a BS (in a Science major). And went on to earn a “yuppie” income in my chosen science field. It was a hard won success, very difficult to deal with as a teenager/young adult. I joined Mensa at 29 and that was validation that I wasn’t stupid, I just wasn’t prepared for college.

I was determined that any children that I had would go to good schools and be better prepared for college. So we moved to a very high performing school district just before my oldest daughter started Kindergarten. They attended the highest ranked HS in this district, precisely because we expected our daughters to be challenged and prepared for college. Not all of the HS in this district are high performing. This HS has prepared both of my girls very well for college. They took some AP and some Dual Credit classes and made mostly As and Bs. Their teachers expected a lot from all of their students and my girls learned to put in the effort and learned that if they didn’t give their best effort, they would be digging themselves out of a gpa hole which would require a LOT more effort than just keeping up with the material to begin with. They didn’t have to deal with that situation too many times before they learned how to manage their time effectively. And they both participated in very time consuming physically demanding ECs.

NEITHER were in the Top 25 % of their HS classes and so both were Holistic review admits, one Full and one Blinn-TEAM. And they have thrived at TAMU, managed their time effectively and have good Aggie social lives as well as a good gpa.

The Aggie friends of my girls have come from many different backgrounds, but one common thread is that most of the ones who are struggling were in the top of their classes from less competitive HS, and they aren’t necessarily majoring in some sort of STEM field. Those friends “never had to study” and are finding the rigor and pace of TAMU very difficult. Some of their schools were public ISDs in large districts, some were public ISDs in very rural districts and some were pricey private prep schools. People who have never earned a B are falling apart when they hit one of the weed out classes, they get over stressed and then that affects their other classes. Some have changed majors, some are learning to manage. And these are students without economic stress, they aren’t on scholarships where they are required to maintain a certain gpa.

The Top 10% rule benefits students like I was, but many of them will have the same struggles that I had. I hope that help is available for them and that they reach out for help instead of just drowning in the stress. I realize that even including a threshold SAT/ACT score for the top 10% will not happen and would still not ensure that everyone who is admitted will thrive at TAMU, just like my decent ACT score of 26 didn’t ensure that I could manage the rigor of my University classes. Some will struggle and learn to thrive and others won’t. But I still think that students in the Top 25% WITH the higher SAT/ACT threshold score are more likely to be prepared for the rigor and pace of TAMU classes and I am sorry to see that category be dropped. Just my 2 cents from my perspective.

30

I think that when you look at the Top 10% rule in Texas and the preparedness or unpreparedness of students - is it absolutely not fair to compare it to what the education system was in Texas in the 80s or early 90s (ie- what is was like when you or I was a student) to today. And I don’t want this conversation to devolve into a common core/standardized testing debate. But the whole foundation plus endorsement and distinguished level of achievement structure changes things dramatically. It makes students have to take academically for rigorous class in order to be in the Top 10 percent. And if forces schools to offer the classes.

Backstory - I’m a native Texan, but lived in another state from age 2 to Sophomore year in HS. A grew up in a city where the state’s flagship university is located and my elementary school, middle school and HS were all walking distance from the University. In fact, with expansion, the university surrounded my middle school while I was there. That building in now part of the university campus.

When I moved to a small 1 high school district (but it was 5A - the largest A at the time) there was absolutely no guidance on what you need to take for college admissions. You had a minimum number of classes to graduate and all diplomas were the same. I think two math, 4 English, 4 social studies, 1 PE, no foreign language requirement. I went from a school where you could take 5 years of French, German, and Spanish - the 5th year was college credit, or 3 years of Latin or Japanese - to a school that only offered 2 years of French and Spanish (I tried to take Spanish 3 when I moved there and the class did not make). I ended up taking two years of Latin - since some universities required 3 years foreign language.

Your parents had to know what colleges were looking for and help you plan your classes. If your parents did not go to college - chances are you were not going to either.

My school’s offerings were night and day from what you would have found say in Plano at the time. There was a huge amount of academic inequity.

My Texas HS is a score of 2/10 on greatschools with a 10% SAT participation rate (State level is 58%). So to this day it in not a school where the average student is even thinking about college. But what you end up with, even back in my day and I assume more so today, is almost a school within a school. Where there is only one or two physics, chemistry and pre-calculus sections. So the college minded students are grouped together for almost all of their classes. All but one of my friend in HS had parents that went to college. And you feed off each other to succeed. And now the school HAS TO OFFER CLASSES TO MEET STATE DEGREE REQUIREMENTS.

The salutatorian of my class is a Stanford graduate. But to highlight how messed up the school’s weighted grade system was at the time (it changed the following year) - the valedictorian took honors homemaking - and edged out the salutatorian by a fraction. The salutatorian took physics and pre-cal - those two classes were not honors. Policy dictated that you had to offer a class in plan 1 (today’s equivalent of academic) if you were going to offer it as an honors class. The valedictorian did not have advanced math and science classes. And I’m not dissing her - she did not need them for what she was studying in college. She was an arts person. She did what she needed for where she was going and what she was going to do. But if she had decided to go somewhere like TAMU and needed engineering calculus - she would have been overwhelmed. In short - the valedictorian of my high school class would not have qualified for auto-admission any state school in Texas because she did not take the classes that are now required for Distinguished Level of Achievement and an endorsement.

So do I think a person graduating 9% at my daughter’s high performing district has grades/GPA equal to someone at 9% at my old high school, the answer is no. The one at my daughter’s high school will have taken probably 5 more AP classes. But that does not mean that a 9%er at my old high school not prepared for college. It means they took 11-15 AP classes vs 4 or 5.

There are so many factors that go into a kid from a “less advantaged” school success in college than just if they were academically prepared. There is home support, financial, and racial identity. They are huge. And if you really talk to someone who knows someone from a high school like mine, that washed out of TAMU or UT - you find it had much more to do with missing home (non college bound boyfriend/girlfriend) or pressure to balance school with a job. Also - if you are coming from a town of 15,000 and a school of 1,200. TAMU or UT’s size in unreal. When you realize that you can fit your whole hometown and the two neighboring cities in Kyle Field and still have empty seats - it’s overwhelming.

31

Exactly!

Also, the whole, ‘schools are not created equal’ is the very reason why the Top 10% statute was created, that along with anticipating challenges to affirmative action. Every kid in the state can’t fit inside the highest ranking (most valued) public high school. Every high school doesn’t offer the same classes, with the same weighting scheme. Every high school doesn’t have ‘the best’ teachers, nor offer the most meaningful academic support or extracurricular activities. Every parent can’t pay for 8 sittings of the SAT to get the desired super score. Every school doesn’t even offer free academic support for college entrance exams (which do not actually reflect academic ability or performance). Some schools don’t offer College Board AP classes, and some families can’t pay for AP or SAT Subject tests.

What you will find at every single Texas High School, without regard for whether or not it’s a high SES, low SES, or middle SES school, is a body of very hard working, and high achieving students who work with the hand that they are dealt to meet the exact same threshold of achievement as every other Top 10%er in the State; The college readiness benchmarks that go along with sustaining a high level of classroom performance (in meaningful classes) over the course of years. Might a class have been harder/more rigorous at another school? Of course it might have. For that matter, it might have been “harder” in the same school, with a different teacher, in a different section. That’s okay… That’s pretty much how it is in college!

In spite of that, some kids will struggle at every SES class of student, for a myriad of reasons like @BlueBayouAZ mentioned. The majority won’t have anything to do with actual college preparedness. Still, here are some immutable facts:

  1. the Top 10% law has been in place since the late 1990s. The majority of admits at both the two most socially coveted in-state universities (TAMU, and UT Austin) are Auto Admits, and it’s been that way for a long time now.

  2. The Freshman retention rates for both UT and TAMU are consistently over 90%.

  3. The four and six year graduation rates for TAMU and UT are higher than the national average. The four and six year graduation rates for minority students at TAMU and UT are higher than the national average.

Prospective Auto Admits aren’t dipping an unprepared toe into a vast ocean, when they’ve only been in the kiddie pool before. They’re joining the vast majority of their actual peers who are already there, and been there for 2+ decades. They’re not going to struggle any more, or any less than any other young adult, newly cast into the world with the training wheels coming off.

That said, at Texas public universities I’d be in favor of keeping the Academic Admit category (for in-state students) in addition to Auto Admit. I think they appropriately reward high achieving students, in the fairest and blindest way that we’ve got today (unless and until someone wants to tackle the social ills that make public education unequal). I’m glad to see the ‘other’ Texas universities, often slighted by Texans, keeping an academic admit category.

32

If anyone really wants to know how well the top 10% of students and not top 10 students fare in income brackets , one just needs to look at the DARS https://dars.tamu.edu/Data-and-Reports/Student/Retention-Graduation (you will have to select the criteria)

1st year Retention years 2013-2017 (figures are not out for 2018)
under 20K is 79-87% add in first generation and it is 79-87%. Non first generation 86-94%.
20K-39,999K is 85-88% add in first generation and it is 83-87%. Non first generation is 88-94%
40K-59,999K is 86-89% add in first generation and it is 83-85%. Non first generation is 87-94%
60K-79,999K is 88-91% add in first generation and it is 85-89%. Non first generation is 91-93%
80K + is 93-95% add in first generation and it is 88-93%. Non first generation is 95-96%.

Not top 10% (which is academic admits and review admits)
Under 20K 81-92% add in first generation and it is 79-89%. Non first generation is 83-100%.
20K-39,999 is 84-90% add in first generation and it is 83-92%. Non first generation is 84-92%
40K-59,999K is 85-90% add in first generation and it is 78-90%. Non first generation is 89-92%
60K-79,999K is 88-90% add in first generation and it is 80-88%. Non first generation is 88-91%
80K+ is 92-93% add in first generation and is is 86-89%. Non first generation is 92-94%

.

33

Thanks @Thelma2 - the stats show that income and family college experience have a direct correlation to the ability to stay in school. You can’t get away from the fact that kids born in poverty, to parents that don’t have a secondary education have a HUGE uphill climb that kids at my daughters’ school do not face.

It takes at least 2 generations to rise above poverty.

I go back to my one close friend after I moved to Texas that did not go to college. Looking back I don’t know how we became friends. She took some VOE classes our sophomore and junior years. I didn’t think anything of it. I took theatre classes and a DECA class. That’s what electives are. Fun exploration.

Come our senior year she was only at school a 1/2 day because she was getting a VOE job. I was confused. How are you going to get all the credits you need for college admission if you are only going 1/2 a day? She wasn’t. Her career goal was to be a secretary. Her dad worked the railroad. Her two older sibling got as far as 8th grade. She was going to be the first person in her family to graduate high school. And the first person to work a professional job.

She actually got her internship/HS job at the business where my dad was a chemical engineer. It was probably the best place she could land a job. And she was smart and a hard worker. They hired her on after school and she had a job with better benefits and stability than anybody in her family had ever had. Around the time I headed to graduate school she married a young preacher that was hired while in college as our youth director. He is actually a couple years younger than us and a the valedictorian from a neighboring even smaller town. And both their girls have college degrees, one is a nurse.

There was no way my friend ever would have gone to college. Not because she wasn’t smart or talented enough. But because that wasn’t anything she ever was raised to believe was possible.

34

@BlueBayouAZ I love stories like these. Thank you for sharing. To add to that, many kids just don’t want to go to college, even if their parents and siblings did. So many other opportunities out there. But totally agree, money makes it easier for these kids to stay in school.

35

@BlueBayouAZ Thank you for sharing that story. I could not agree more about how hard it can be to rise above where you start.

I was the first male in at least 3 generations on both sides of my family to not immediately enlist in the military and make a career out of that. I tried to go directly to college, but with a lack of support that did not last. I eventually went on my own and put myself through college first an AAS and several years later a BS, unfortunately by that time I was no longer considered a dependent and no access to military benefits.

My daughter is currently the first-generation going the more traditional route, just completing her PSA year at TAMU-CC and hopefully matriculating to College Station this fall (just waiting on the official acceptance at this point).

Thankfully, I have been able to use my experience and struggles to get where I am today to show my daughter that the route I took is not easy, and that going to directly to college AND sticking it out may make things better in the long run.

Good Luck to all current and future Aggies, especially those first or second generation that pave the way for the future generations. When you have a history of going to college, it becomes more natural for those that follow.